1930's Debut Year Baseball Autographs, MOST RARE

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #1 12-11-2024, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I wonder if many of the players from the 1920s and 30s with no known examples are due to the simple fact that they never learned to write, not even their names. I don't think that was uncommon in that time, especially with many players coming out of rural and backwoods area.

I would confidently place money on my exemplar file for this period being the most extensive in existence. With that in mind, I can assure you that illiteracy, at least insofar as signing one's name is concerned, was happily not present within the MLB fraternity (the Negro Leaguers may be an entirely different matter altogether; I am just commenting on the actual Major Leagues, not the revamped, politically correct version of the Major Leagues).

Also, off the top of my head, there isn't a single 1920-onward player for whom at least one exemplar does not exist. This is of course different from any of their autographs being in private hands. If there are any players from this time period for whom nothing exists, not even a draft registration card, I am completely forgetting them. This doesn't seem like something I would forget. If I am wrong in this, the number of players would be absolutely minuscule.

stat192 · #2 12-11-2024, 03:41 PM

If anyone has any of these debut autos for sale, I will pay generously, this are last 7 I need to complete my 1933 to present autograph collection

1933
Charlie Butler Phillies

1934
Bill Perrin Indians

1935
Whitey Ock Dodgers

1937
Jerry Lynn 87 Senators / Salisbury Indians

1939
Johnny Echols Cardinals

1944
JOHN FICK 58 PHLLIES

1945
JACK PHILLIPS 58 GIANTS

Topnotchsy · #3 08-11-2025, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stat192

If anyone has any of these debut autos for sale, I will pay generously, this are last 7 I need to complete my 1933 to present autograph collection

1933
Charlie Butler Phillies

1934
Bill Perrin Indians

1935
Whitey Ock Dodgers

1937
Jerry Lynn 87 Senators / Salisbury Indians

1939
Johnny Echols Cardinals

1944
JOHN FICK 58 PHLLIES

1945
JACK PHILLIPS 58 GIANTS

Any of these were soldiers who played ball in WWII? Have a bunch of WWII signed baseballs and wondering if there's anyone I should be looking for

JimStinson · #4 11-02-2025, 11:03 AM

Seems like some good old posts never die

Just turned up a Harold "Whitey" Ock. Only played one game for the Dodgers in 1935 and died in 1975. Still remains one of the toughest of all 1930's debut players.
_____________________
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Hankphenom · #5 12-11-2024, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I would confidently place money on my exemplar file for this period being the most extensive in existence. With that in mind, I can assure you that illiteracy, at least insofar as signing one's name is concerned, was happily not present within the MLB fraternity (the Negro Leaguers may be an entirely different matter altogether; I am just commenting on the actual Major Leagues, not the revamped, politically correct version of the Major Leagues). Also, off the top of my head, there isn't a single 1920-onward player for whom at least one exemplar does not exist. This is of course different from any of their autographs being in private hands. If there are any players from this time period for whom nothing exists, not even a draft registration card, I am completely forgetting them. This doesn't seem like something I would forget. If I am wrong in this, the number of players would be absolutely minuscule.

Interesting, and thanks for the information. I must have overestimated the amount of illiteracy a hundred years ago. I'm not sure why you think it would be different for the Negro League players. Incidentally, my friend's father was very close to Billy Cox.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #6 12-11-2024, 08:10 PM

The chances of illiteracy would unfortunately have been greater with African Americans just due to so much less afforded to them 100+ years ago. Just an uncomfortable truth.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #7 12-11-2024, 08:38 PM

To be clear, there must have been some Major Leaguers from that era who were functionally illiterate beyond signing their names and perhaps a few basic other words.

Sometimes, what you see isn't always what you get. I recall seeing the autograph of a man named Jerry Standaert for the first time many years ago. During his playing days, he had signed a 3X5 in 1929 and also added "Boston Red Soxs" (actual spelling). It appeared to have taken him half an hour to write these things; lots of stops and starts in strange places, almost between every letter. Clearly, based on all of this, one would surmise that Mr. Standaert had to be pretty close to illiterate.

Some years later, I unearthed an impressively large trove of handwritten player questionnaires from the 1920's that were gathering dust in a library. I drove over ten hours specifically to check all of these out. There was one from Standaert. In a slightly less labored hand (and in pencil, which maybe he was more comfortable using), he wrote an entire page of words. It should be noted there were no spelling mistakes, either.

Later on, I also discovered a questionnaire that one of his relatives had completed for a baseball researcher after his death. He is listed as having a 10th grade education.

Then, there is the truly perplexing. Take the case of Champ Osteen. He signed his WWI draft registration with an X mark, yet I know that he was literate, could sign his name and had two years of college education! Furthermore, while 99+% of these documents were filled out by someone else, then signed at the bottom by the player, this one certainly appears to have been filled out by Osteen himself! And I am not even sure what's going on with the fact that someone else signed their name at the bottom, then it was crossed out and signed by Osteen. Attached is also a much later Osteen signed 3X5. While the infirmities of age definitely affected some letter formations, the similarities in many of them speak for themselves (compare with the "James Champ Osteen" at the top of the document). Right down to placing dots in strange places! "James. Champ" and "Champ. Osteen.". I think I even see a faint dot between Champ and Osteen on the draft card. Figure all of that out! I sure can't. Maybe he had a strange sense of humor in signing with an X? Maybe he was trying to claim illiteracy in an effort to not be drafted? Either way, he was 41 years old when he signed the document, so his chances of having to serve were not really even an issue.

Hankphenom · #8 12-12-2024, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

The chances of illiteracy would unfortunately have been greater with African Americans just due to so much less afforded to them 100+ years ago. Just an uncomfortable truth.

Perhaps, but there also would have been a relatively larger pool of poor whites who grew up in equally hard-scrabble circumstances as many of the black players, i.e. on tenant farms, in mining communities, etc., places where kids never went to school or left at very young ages to go to work. And given that the country was 90% white at the time, I would surmise that the number of white illiterate ballplayers would have far exceeded the number of black illiterate ballplayers.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #9 12-12-2024, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Perhaps, but there also would have been a relatively larger pool of poor whites who grew up in equally hard-scrabble circumstances as many of the black players, i.e. on tenant farms, in mining communities, etc., places where kids never went to school or left at very young ages to go to work. And given that the country was 90% white at the time, I would surmise that the number of white illiterate ballplayers would have far exceeded the number of black illiterate ballplayers.

What you say certainly makes a lot of sense. We unfortunately will only be able to speculate on this as opposed to ever being able to offer the world anything concrete. There are so many Negro Leaguers for whom full basic data is missing. Common names, no middle names on file, let alone DOB/DOD...the picture will likely never be fully formed for every NL'er.

Conversely, we do have a full list of MLB players from this 1920's-30's era. While there will continuously be fine tweaking of some of this data until the end of time, we generally know where and when they were all born and passed away. On top of that, over more than 30 years, I have collected post-baseball career info (their lines of work) and causes of death for almost all from this period. As noted, they were all capable of signing their names and I am certain I've seen all of their autographs in my years of doing this. I've also owned the vast majority of them at some point in time, albeit not all at once! Again, I do want to make room for the fact that a scant name or two could possibly be escaping me; like the rest of us, my memory is not as razor-sharp as it was in my youth!

Hankphenom · #10 12-13-2024, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

What you say certainly makes a lot of sense. We unfortunately will only be able to speculate on this as opposed to ever being able to offer the world anything concrete. There are so many Negro Leaguers for whom full basic data is missing. Common names, no middle names on file, let alone DOB/DOD...the picture will likely never be fully formed for every NL'er. Conversely, we do have a full list of MLB players from this 1920's-30's era. While there will continuously be fine tweaking of some of this data until the end of time, we generally know where and when they were all born and passed away. On top of that, over more than 30 years, I have collected post-baseball career info (their lines of work) and causes of death for almost all from this period. As noted, they were all capable of signing their names and I am certain I've seen all of their autographs in my years of doing this. I've also owned the vast majority of them at some point in time, albeit not all at once! Again, I do want to make room for the fact that a scant name or two could possibly be escaping me; like the rest of us, my memory is not as razor-sharp as it was in my youth!

I grew up thinking that marking one's name with an "X" was not an uncommon thing, but it seems from what you say that it was rare indeed. Instead of Joe Jackson just being the most prominent of players unable to sign or only with great difficulty, he was actually one of the very few. Thanks for the information.

Brent G. · #11 12-13-2024, 12:58 PM

Very interesting that things have come full circle: Many modern ballplayers -- more and more as time passes -- have no idea how to sign their name due to the removal of cursive writing from education, and indecipherable squiggles now serve as signatures/autographs.

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