New York Times Leaf Article

bk400 · #1 12-18-2024, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think even Musial depends on whether you consider his Montiel card his true rookie or not. It predates all 1948 issues too.

Agree. If you consider Jackie's true rookie to be the 47BB, then logically the Montiel must be Musial's rookie card (or at least supersedes the 48B for rookie card status).

Peter_Spaeth · #2 12-18-2024, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bk400

Agree. If you consider Jackie's true rookie to be the 47BB, then logically the Montiel must be Musial's rookie card (or at least supersedes the 48B for rookie card status).

Logically we could distinguish a US baseball issue from a Cuban multisport issue, no?

packs · #3 12-18-2024, 05:29 PM

Usually I would agree but the Montiel is a tough one. Musial appears in his Cardinals uniform and his career up to date with the Cardinals is featured in his bio on the back. The issue is also referred to as 1946-47 which would I think challenge any other issue.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 12-18-2024, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Usually I would agree but the Montiel is a tough one. Musial appears in his Cardinals uniform and his career up to date with the Cardinals is featured in his bio on the back. The issue is also referred to as 1946-47 which would I think challenge any other issue.

When did he wear #19?

BioCRN · #5 12-18-2024, 05:43 PM

There are no winners in a regional issue vs national issue RC debate.

Then there's "Do exhibits count?" and "Do card game cards count?"...etc

It ends with more RC's than people thought possible once everyone has stated their side.

BigfootIsReal · #6 12-18-2024, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BioCRN

There are no winners in a regional issue vs national issue RC debate.

Then there's "Do exhibits count?" and "Do card game cards count?"...etc

It ends with more RC's than people thought possible once everyone has stated their side.

The recent Ruth Morehouse (regional issue) was auctioned as a "rookie". What's up with that then?

bk400 · #7 12-19-2024, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigfootIsReal

The recent Ruth Morehouse (regional issue) was auctioned as a "rookie". What's up with that then?

Yes, indeed. The Hank Aaron Clowns card that recently sold at auction is perhaps another example.

I wouldn't be surprised if, over time, regional and minor league cards of major stars will become more coveted by collectors -- especially if they were issued earlier and are rarer than the national issue.

(I could also see this playing out in the modern arena. A Mookie Betts 2012 card when he played for the Lowell Spinners feels much more interesting to collect than one of his myriad modern rookie cards and rookie card parallels. Especially if Mookie gets to, say, 100 WAR).

rats60 · #8 12-19-2024, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigfootIsReal

The recent Ruth Morehouse (regional issue) was auctioned as a "rookie". What's up with that then?

People who own or are selling cards call them rookie cards to try to get more money. It doesn't make them rookie cards.

packs · #9 12-18-2024, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When did he wear #19?

No idea. DiMaggio is wearing number 18 on the Hank Erickson National Chicle.

This write up on Musial's 1941 debut features the original photo used for the Montiel card. Looks like a Cardinals uniform to me:

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/sept...-league-debut/

From the photo credit on the web page: Stan Musial — pictured wearing a number 19 jersey during spring training 1942 in St. Petersburg, Florida — hit .426 in 12 games as a rookie call-up in September 1941. (National Baseball Hall of Fame Library)

So the Montiel features a photo of Musial from spring training 1942. I would say that's another plus for that card.

Kutcher55 · #10 12-18-2024, 06:11 PM

What a trivial debate. On a more interesting subject (at least to me), can anyone tell me just how “short” the SPs are for 1948-9 Leaf? They seem to get a massive premium suggesting they are much more than twice as rare as their non SP counterparts. Relative pop counts suggest the same. Is there an old net54 thread someone can direct me to that helps answer this question? Why are these SPs so dang short?

yanks87 · #11 12-19-2024, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

What a trivial debate. On a more interesting subject (at least to me), can anyone tell me just how �short� the SPs are for 1948-9 Leaf? They seem to get a massive premium suggesting they are much more than twice as rare as their non SP counterparts. Relative pop counts suggest the same. Is there an old net54 thread someone can direct me to that helps answer this question? Why are these SPs so dang short?

I don't know that there is a quantifiable number to encapsulate how SHORT the SHORT actually is, that said, in talking with a ton of people while writing the book, they were not really even known about until the 1970's. When speaking with James Beckett on his podcast, he recanted that he, and other dealers started finding them in the 70's centralized in the Great Lakes states. This would make sense as the lawsuit with Bowman hit in March of 1949, but the second suit hit in May, which essentially shut down the east coast distribution of the cards. I think amidst litigation, and wanting to get rid of any inventory that had been produced (the short prints), LEAF pumped out the cards to distributors close to Chicago in an effort to shut down the baseball card endeavor and not lose any more money on it.

samosa4u · #12 12-20-2024, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

What a trivial debate. On a more interesting subject (at least to me), can anyone tell me just how �short� the SPs are for 1948-9 Leaf? They seem to get a massive premium suggesting they are much more than twice as rare as their non SP counterparts. Relative pop counts suggest the same. Is there an old net54 thread someone can direct me to that helps answer this question? Why are these SPs so dang short?

I just looked through my book here called TRUE MINT by the late great Alan Rosen (Mr. Mint) and he mentions how he found four sealed boxes of the second series down in Tampa, and after opening three of them (432 cards), he only got one Satch Paige card! This led him to believe that the Paige was one of the hardest postwar cards to find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks87

The two baseball series were produced the same way, 4X49 cards per sheet. So from a production standpoint, all short prints were produced at the same number. What survived the years, that is another story. The big names always hang around, the lesser knowns sometimes don't as few care about the commons.

Yeah, so this is the part that's obviously confusing. If Rosen pulled only one Paige card after opening three boxes, then how could they have been produced at the same number ?? Very strange!

Peter_Spaeth · #13 12-18-2024, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

No idea. DiMaggio is wearing number 18 on the Hank Erickson National Chicle.

This write up on Musial's 1941 debut features the original photo used for the Montiel card. Looks like a Cardinals uniform to me:

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/sept...-league-debut/

From the photo credit on the web page: Stan Musial � pictured wearing a number 19 jersey during spring training 1942 in St. Petersburg, Florida � hit .426 in 12 games as a rookie call-up in September 1941. (National Baseball Hall of Fame Library)

So the Montiel features a photo of Musial from spring training 1942. I would say that's another plus for that card.

Good find.

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