Let�s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

butchie_t · #1 01-12-2025, 09:47 AM

John,

Don’t worry about me and our conversations. Feel free to post anything you deduce from them. And post any pictures as well.

I’ll cobble together my findings over the next couple of days. Other ‘irons’ in the fire at the moment.

Cheers,

Butch.

Johnphotoman · #2 01-14-2025, 02:22 PM

Butch: Was kind enough to send images of his cards. First card believed from the Festberg find, middle card Bond Bread card, third card from Baseball Card Society. Notice- Festberg find and the BCS have the same ivory backs while the Bond Bread card has a cream white back. John

Johnphotoman · #3 01-17-2025, 07:15 AM

I was doing a Google search on David Festberg and this generated AI information popped up. I never heard that he reportedly found a significant collection of rare baseball cards. Has anyone else?

AI Overview: The "Festberg Find" refers to a significant collection of rare baseball cards discovered by David Festberg, a prominent early baseball card dealer, which included a particularly valuable Honus Wagner T206 card considered one of the "Holy Grails" of sports memorabilia; this find is notable for its historical significance and the high auction prices the cards commanded when sold later on.

Key points about the Festberg Find: Discovery:

David Festberg, who ran one of the first dedicated baseball card stores in Brooklyn, reportedly found the collection, including the Wagner card, in an old paper bag while purchasing a batch of cards from another dealer.
Significance of the Wagner card:
The Honus Wagner T206 card is considered one of the most valuable baseball cards due to its scarcity, with only a few known examples remaining.

Impact on the market:
The Festberg Find's sale at auction significantly increased the market value of the Wagner card, setting a new benchmark for prices achieved by rare baseball cards.

Legacy:

The story of the Festberg Find is often cited as a prime example of the thrill and potential for high rewards within the world of antique card collecting.
Rare Ty Cobb Baseball Cards Found In Old Paper Bag Help Smash Honus Wagner Auction Record May 4, 2016. Thanks John

Johnphotoman · #4 01-17-2025, 07:23 AM

Read whole article:

https://collectrea.com/archives/2016...r-honus-wagner

David Festberg, a very noted (and colorful!) collector and dealer from Brooklyn, New York, who was extremely active in the hobby for several decades beginning in the 1970s. Festberg was one of the very first dealers to regularly run auctions in Sports Collector's Digest, and in February 1993, he announced in a full-page advertisement his intention to offer up for auction his personal example of the legendary Wagner card. The card, according to Festberg's ad, was purchased at the Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, show in 1986 for full asking price from a dealer on the show floor who was representing a "well known collector." Festberg kept the card in his personal collection until making the decision to offer a T206 Honus Wagner for auction in the SCD. Thanks John.

Mikehallett22 · #5 01-22-2025, 02:20 PM

Has anyone tried to grade any of the Festburg cards? The ones with square corners and cream colored backs. It looks like PSA wont grade them at all, and SGC grades the rounded corners and exhibits.
If you have tried grading them, what did SGC say?

Johnphotoman · #6 01-23-2025, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikehallett22

Has anyone tried to grade any of the Festburg cards? The ones with square corners and cream colored backs. It looks like PSA wont grade them at all, and SGC grades the rounded corners and exhibits.
If you have tried grading them, what did SGC say?

Mikehallett22: Great question. But first let me say- The Festburg cards are on ivory/beige paper stock. The round corner Bond Bread cards, the ones inserted into loaves of Bond Bread are cream in color. My research has shown that the square corner cards circa 1947-are on ivory/beige paper stock, that's including the Festburg cards.

While grading companies don�t grade square cards anymore, many reasons are given as to why. The problem is they are stuck in the past. They are stuck in their old ways, same old same old ways of looking at cards and not taking any new information into account. I believe they do not know what to look for. They can grade the appearance and quality of the card, but will not say anything about the origins of the cards. This is because of past guarding issues. In the past they have given circa dates from 1947-1950, have called them Bond Bread cards to an unknown issues.

I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes by some of the top grading companies. I believe this is the reason, they are not up to date on what to look for, therefore they just will not grade square corner cards. Maybe just maybe- they were called out on the obvious fakes that they graded over the early years and refuse to grade cards they are not sure about.

Well I say do you homework. I do not use grading companies, for one I hate the slabs they come in: But if you are in it for the money and not the fun�then you want your cards to be graded. And we as collectors want these companies to grade the square corner cards again, this can be done, we just need to set up guidelines. Call them-�Previously called Bond Bread, square corner cards, circa 1940s-1949 and grade appearance and quality of the card.

What we do know about the Bond Bread cards and the look alike squared cornered cards is that both were issued circa 1947, that is the general consensus now: Of course there are fake cards that were reprinted or copied circa 1950 to date. But that is the caveat of those cards, we can tell them apart from the real issues cards in 1947.

I don't understand why most vintage card collectors and Grading Companies remain highly skeptical towards these square corner cards, deeming them little more than fakes. Again yes there are fakes, but to call all square corner cards fakes or some kind of reprint, is wrong.

The problem is that many of these Grading companies claim the square cards are fakes or reprints. Others don't grade Bond Bread at all, because someone could take a square-corned (reprint) and round the corners and try to pass it off as an original.

That last part is total BS, if they did their homework, they would know that the square corner cards are on different paper stock then the round corner cards. If you take a square card and cut the corners�all you have is a square card with rounded corners. No way, that card would not pass off for a Bond Bread card if the card grader did his homework. Now in the past someone might fall for such a thing. But there is no way a trained card grader should be taken in; unless they grade the same old same old way. The information is out there to take in and grade square cornered cards in this age. Why not do so?

Below I show two cards, it�s hard to really see the color difference when posting on a computer screen that's because you do not see the true color of the cards. The first card is a true Bond Bread card, the second is a square corner card: I rounded the corners to look like a Bond Bread card. The backs show the one I rounded is a fake.

The first: A true Bond Bread card, on cream white paper stock. Second card:Fake, squared card, I cornered. On ivory/ beige paper stock. Third card: Bond Bread on left, fake on the right: There is no way a fake square card made to look like a round corner card will pass off as a true Bond Bread card. Fourth card: Bond Bread on bottom. Fake card on top. As you can see, taking a square corner card and rounding the corners will not pass as a Bond Bread card- if you know what to look for. It is best to have a card you know is Bond Bread and use that card to compare other cards too. John

butchie_t · #7 01-23-2025, 05:38 PM

Fake is certainly an interesting tag line here.

I will agree that fake can be used in conversation about the square cards being 'fake' Bond Bread Cards.

That is where the 'fake' monicker stops for me.

Now, lets move on to what is probably more closer to fact then fake. The square cards are more than likely circa late 40's.

They were more than likely printed from proofs? that were also used for the Bond Bread Cards. The similarities are just too strong to ignore out of hand.

Who printed them? Pretty damned good chance it was Aarco that printed them.

And I believe it fair to say they ended up in the Sports Star Subjects Sets. This for me, is the missing link.

Michael Fried had a great deal of data and conversations between net54 posters here and then went dark. I have reached out to him regarding this thread and to weigh back into it. But no reply from him.

Ted Z. was very adamant in their conversations but I am now of the opinion that Ted did not have all the facts either. That is fine, he remembered the cards as he did and was not inclined to engage in a different aspect of the origins of these cards.

So, here we are today. I believe John has put in a great deal of legwork to at least readdress the conversation as to where these cards belong in the hobby.

I believe they do belong in the hobby and not as fakes. Even some of the larger catalogs refer to the 'square cornered' cards. So it is not like they just showed up one day in the late 80's from out of the blue.

They were 'there' long before that and were rediscovered by someone.

I know there are many here that have information regarding this topic and I beg of you to weigh in with your thoughts. Wouldn't it be great to add another group of cards to the larger cataloging of cards.

These cards need a cataloged home. And not as a fake set of cards either.

Butch Turner

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