Fernando Valenzuela Secretarial?

[bowmanred]

I've been doing a deep dive into Valenzuela's signature and I notice that the style below has passed at all three TPAs (PSA seems to pass this consistently) but is very different from his other known signatures and never appears on anything besides flats. In fact, I've gone year by year since his rookie season until the 2000s and I don't see anything resembling it. It has a very distinctive sharp line variation and pronounced right italic slant that doesn't resemble Valenzuela's hand at all. Frankly, there are too many red flags. I think it's a secretarial, what do you guys think?

[bowmanred]

Just found out how to do attachments, sorry

[Brent G.]

I dunno — I have these two — one certified by PSA and the other was denied for being secretarial.

[bowmanred]

I have definitely seen that second one certified by PSA multiple times as well.

[Kaneen]

PSA certifies them all, the real ones and the TTM secretarials. They also certify both the real Don Zimmer's and the Mrs. Don Zimmer's...it is maddening to me. It is easy to tell the difference, especially on Zimmer.

I got Fernando in person many times, including one time when his personal assistant was with him on a Dodgers road trip to my home graphing city. On that occasion I walked about a block alongside Fernando and his assistant. Fernando kept ignoring my request for an autograph, but he finally looked at me and said "He'll sign it for you" and then they just looked at each other and laughed. (You know, the kind of laugh where they are in on an inside joke and you're not.) Fernando just kept on suggesting "he'll sign it for you,"and then they'd smile and laugh. I replied, "But I'd really appreciate if you would sign it." Fernando then said, "He can do it better than I can!" And again they had a good laugh. When we finally arrived at the door of the hotel Fernando took my SI magazine and signed it. This encounter led me to believe I had just met the person who signed all (or certainly most) of Fernando's mail requests.

Anyhow, I have studied Fernando's autograph extensively, and the following pic is a side by side comparison of in person vs. TTM:



The one on the left I got in person...the one on the right I got TTM. The TTM version has a different formation on the "F" and always has the long below the line tail on the "z" in Valenzuela.

And here is the in person signed SI magazine Fernando signed for me the day I believe I also met his personal ghostsigner.



I strongly believe the OP's example, and the encapsulated versions above, to be secretarial...probably signed by the guy with the brief case who walked around with Fernando all weekend in Cincinnati a few years ago.

[bowmanred]

Wow. Thank you so much for that detailed response; it definitely confirms my suspicions. Cool that you got to meet Valenzuela, even if he didn't want to sign. It can be very difficult to suss out the secretarials when they make it into slabs and/or are shown on the AutographFacts page.

[earlywynnfan]

So Kevin, you're opinion would be that this one is "secretarial?" It came in a large auction grouping, so I don't know the history.

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

So Kevin, you're opinion would be that this one is "secretarial?" It came in a large auction grouping, so I don't know the history.

Hi Ken...it's difficult to see the beginning of that signature, but honestly I don't know what to make of this one. If someone on eBay was selling this my initial reaction would be that it's a poor attempt at a forgery of the secretarial version of his signature. It certainly doesn't resemble any of the in person signatures I ever got from Fernando.

That said, I do also allow for the fact that sometimes a player will sign an in person autograph in a crowd or a rush and you never know what kind of messy signature you might get. Alex Rodriguez signed an 8x10 in person for me at Spring Training one time that would probably never pass authentication by a TPA. So who really knows.

[Scott Garner]

FWIW, I'm not sure that I agree with the observation that secretarial Fernando autographs exhibit the long tail below the signature.

When I lived in So Cal I managed to get Fernando's autograph 3 times in the wild.
For your consideration, please see the attached photo of the autograph that he signed for me at the LA Open at Riviera CC in Pacific Palisades, CA in the early-mid 1990's.

OT, so sad about the fires in LA. RIP to the 16 people that died in the fires.

I spotted Fernando and his son walking in to watch the tournament and managed to get this autograph on my golf periscope.
To say that he was a reluctant signer is the understatement of the year, but I did get it as the result of some serious begging from my close friend when I initially got rebuffed.

Note the long tales
I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to the theory that secretarial Fernando autographs were the only ones that had this characteristic.

RIP Fernando, one of the great characters in the MLB.

[homerunhitter]

This thread makes me want to focus on factory pack pulled autographs vs after market autographs.(and not TPA autographs)

[bowmanred]

Yes, there are several authentic variants of Valenzuela's signature with a tail on one of the letters in his surname.

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

FWIW, I'm not sure that I agree with the observation that secretarial Fernando autographs exhibit the long tail below the signature.

When I lived in So Cal I managed to get Fernando's autograph 3 times in the wild.
For your consideration, please see the attached photo of the autograph that he signed for me at the LA Open at Riviera CC in Pacific Palisades, CA in the early-mid 1990's.

OT, so sad about the fires in LA. RIP to the 16 people that died in the fires.

I spotted Fernando and his son walking in to watch the tournament and managed to get this autograph on my golf periscope.
To say that he was a reluctant signer is the understatement of the year, but I did get it as the result of some serious begging from my close friend when I initially got rebuffed.

Note the long tales
I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to the theory that secretarial Fernando autographs were the only ones that had this characteristic.

RIP Fernando, one of the great characters in the MLB.

Hey Scott, congrats on landing that signature! I did not mean to imply that Fernando himself never drops some "tails" below the line of his signature. However, what I would point out is that when he does, the pronounced tail is typically on the "l" (next to last letter) and not on the "z." And it is typically a straight vertical line and not a long swooping curved tail. Your signature does have a slight tail on the z, but you'll notice it is a straight line. I've never seen an in person signature with the long, loopy tail on the z, and I've very rarely ever seen a TTM signature without it. Of course I haven't seen every in person signature he ever signed, so sure...there could be some anomalies or exceptions. The formation of the "F" in yours (and other confirmed IP examples) is markedly different from the TTM secretarials as well.

[Kaneen]

Here is another Fernando card I got signed in person. Note that it does have a below the line tail, but it is on the "l" and not on the "z."

[Scott Garner]

One question to the group on very early rookie autographs of Fernando.
I have what I believe to be an different early index card example of his signature, where he completely scribes Fernando, not the Fdo that you usually see.

Can others share what they believe to be a very early example of Fernando?
At this point this conversation has me wondering if my index card is a secretarial example...

Thanks in advance...

[Brent G.]

So Kevin, do you believe the PSA slabbed '86 Donruss above is not Fernando's signature?

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

So Kevin, do you believe the PSA slabbed '86 Donruss above is not Fernando's signature?

Brent, unfortunately I believe that one to be a TTM version, and therefore most likely secretarial...if you look at the 2 side-by-side cards I posted above, your slabbed 86D signature matches pretty much spot-on the card on the right (which I received TTM). That's just my opinion, for whatever that's worth. From what I have witnessed, once a signature makes it into a PSA slab, the vast majority of collectors, buyers, and sellers don't really seem to care what I or anyone else thinks! Lol

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Kaneen

Brent, unfortunately I believe that one to be a TTM version, and therefore most likely secretarial...if you look at the 2 side-by-side cards I posted above, your slabbed 86D signature matches pretty much spot-on the card on the right (which I received TTM). That's just my opinion, for whatever that's worth. From what I have witnessed, once a signature makes it into a PSA slab, the vast majority of collectors, buyers, and sellers don't really seem to care what I or anyone else thinks! Lol

Appreciate the insight — it definitely matters to me; I’ll probably try to dump it and find the real thing.

[Kaneen]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

Appreciate the insight — it definitely matters to me; I’ll probably try to dump it and find the real thing.

Brent, are you looking to replace that specific 86D card, or just for any card with a more confident signature?

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Kaneen

Alex Rodriguez signed an 8x10 in person for me at Spring Training one time that would probably never pass authentication by a TPA. So who really knows.

Unfortunately, that's no worse than many of the autographs from today's athletes that are signed in relaxed conditions.

[doug.goodman]

On Sept 30, 1980 I jumped in my either my Ford Capri or my Chevy El Camino, I forget which of them owned in 1980, and made the 95 mile drive to Candlestick Park to see my Dodgers play the home town Giants.

When I walked into the stadium I must have been handed this media guide as a giveaway that night, because I certainly wouldn't have paid money for it.

I made my way down to the field on the third base side, near the Dodgers dugout, and managed to get 8 signatures before the game started.

One of them an unknown rookie pitcher who would start the 9th in his 7th relief appearance of the season, with the score tied 3-3.

After getting Darrel Evans on a fly to center, we Dodger fans weren't too excited when proceeded to walk Will Clark and Max Venable, but he made up for it by striking out Rich Murray and Guy Sularz to end the inning.

In the 10th the Dodgers scored 3 runs before he struck out in his first career at bat to end the top of the inning.

He struck out the first 2 batters he faced in the bottom of the inning, then got Rennie Stennett to ground out giving the rookie his first career win.

Then I made the 95 mile drive home.

I hadn't had a chance to dig this out until today.

Rest in peace Fernando.

[bowmanred]

That's a fantastic piece Doug, thanks for posting.

[bjerome]

Resized_20250202_003114_1738477879515.jpg

I got this one TTM about 2010-2011 time frame. What do you think?