Ebay Authentication is a Comical JOKE.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Maybe because the view of most collectors is that it's the condition of the card that's the main issue with grading and in authentication / ebay verification, not the holder?

I get your point, scratches on slabs drive me nuts too. But to me ebay just outright rejecting it is a bit much. Maybe put another step in the process to alert the buyer hey - the slab is scratched, but the card checks out. Do you still want it? Then give the buyer (who is likely pissed at this point as well...) the option instead of making such a final decision.

John, the main point of Ebay's authentication program for graded cards, probably 99% of it, is just to make sure the card they get from the seller is the same as the listing.

There used to be a fair amount of scammers who would sell a PSA 5 Mantle and deliver instead a graded Greg Jeffries card, or an empty box. There were also a few buyers who would actually get a PSA 5 Mantle from a legitimate seller, but claim they got an empty box.

Ebay's resolution service was very busy trying to sort through these claims. It can be difficult in some cases to decide who is lying. Since Ebay began the authentication program, most of these issues have gone away. If a seller sends that Greg Jeffries card to PSA, it gets sent back and nobody hears about it. But I suspect that is a rare occurrence anymore.

Now, I suspect the PSA graders doing the authentication for Ebay have very little to do when they get a graded card, so maybe this one grader looked at Dan's case a little too closely.

There was also I think a big story a couple years ago about someone putting cards in fake PSA flips and selling them. Do you remember that one? I'm not sure if that was an Ebay issue or not, my recollection is they were being sold at a card show.

As for raw cards, I doubt your raw EX-MT cards would be rejected, as long as they weren't creased or heavily worn. I think on the raw side PSA is mostly checking to see if the card is authentic, is the same one as shown in the listing and is described fairly.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

John, the main point of Ebay's authentication program for graded cards, probably 99% of it, is just to make sure the card they get from the seller is the same as the listing.

There used to be a fair amount of scammers who would sell a PSA 5 Mantle and deliver instead a graded Greg Jeffries card, or an empty box. There were also a few buyers who would actually get a PSA 5 Mantle from a legitimate seller, but claim they got an empty box.

Ebay's resolution service was very busy trying to sort through these claims. It can be difficult in some cases to decide who is lying. Since Ebay began the authentication program, most of these issues have gone away. If a seller sends that Greg Jeffries card to PSA, it gets sent back and nobody hears about it. But I suspect that is a rare occurrence anymore.

Now, I suspect the PSA graders doing the authentication for Ebay have very little to do when they get a graded card, so maybe this one grader looked at Dan's case a little too closely.

There was also I think a big story a couple years ago about someone putting cards in fake PSA flips and selling them. Do you remember that one? I'm not sure if that was an Ebay issue or not, my recollection is they were being sold at a card show.

As for raw cards, I doubt your raw EX-MT cards would be rejected, as long as they weren't creased or heavily worn. I think on the raw side PSA is mostly checking to see if the card is authentic, is the same one as shown in the listing and is described fairly.

Thanks Al. I'm aware of what the point of the program is.

I have not tried out the authentication experience with raw cards as a seller, but had heard some horror stories of ostensibly inexperienced authenticators issuing rejections based on holding raw sellers to super critical standards. My point in discussing the raw was that I think it's not good if because of such experiences, raw sellers are more likely to disclose less (i.e. not list a condition range at all...) on such listings.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Thanks Al. I'm aware of what the point of the program is.

I have not tried out the authentication experience with raw cards as a seller, but had heard some horror stories of ostensibly inexperienced authenticators issuing rejections based on holding raw sellers to super critical standards. My point in discussing the raw was that I think it's not good if because of such experiences, raw sellers are more likely to disclose less (i.e. not list a condition range at all...) on such listings.

When you put up a card for sale on Ebay, you need to list the condition as either:

Near mint or better: Comparable to a fresh pack
Excellent: Has clearly visible signs of wear
Very good: Has moderate-to-heavy damage all over
Poor: Is extremely worn and displays flaws all over

When you sell a card over $250, it goes to PSA for review. I imagine their review standards are comparable to their grading standards, but with a bit more tolerance. For instance, if you pop a PSA 4 out of its slab and sell it on Ebay as Excellent, I bet it would pass the review.

On the other hand, if you list a card as Near Mint and it has surface issues, be prepared for it to be rejected.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

When you put up a card for sale on Ebay, you need to list the condition as either:

Near mint or better: Comparable to a fresh pack
Excellent: Has clearly visible signs of wear
Very good: Has moderate-to-heavy damage all over
Poor: Is extremely worn and displays flaws all over

This is not the same thing as listing a card condition like NM or EX or VG, however. There are radio buttons to do this on ebay and they more or less insinuate what you are saying. But as a card person, "Excellent" in their definition here doesn't have much to do with card condition. This is my problem with the system. It's not clear from eBay's perspective what is intended here really - as the same condition choices exist for electronics as they do sports cards.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

This is not the same thing as listing a card condition like NM or EX or VG, however. There are radio buttons to do this on ebay and they more or less insinuate what you are saying. But as a card person, "Excellent" in their definition here doesn't have much to do with card condition. This is my problem with the system. It's not clear from eBay's perspective what is intended here really - as the same condition choices exist for electronics as they do sports cards.

Yeah, the basic Poor/Good/Excellent/Mint grading scale can apply to a lot of things. I expect the PSA graders base their review on their standards for card grading and then give some leeway from there.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

There was also I think a big story a couple years ago about someone putting cards in fake PSA flips and selling them. Do you remember that one? I'm not sure if that was an Ebay issue or not, my recollection is they were being sold at a card show.

I think there's also an element where people will crack out a card very carefully, replace it with a lesser grade card, and reseal the slab. So you get a piece that on casual inspection looks like it's legit, but it's actually been replaced with a lower grade card.

My understanding is that one of the primary points of inspecting the slabs through the AG program is to attempt to catch these bad actors.

If I remember correctly, Adam recently had a buddy who bought a slab at a show that had undergone just such manipulation, and Adam was able to flag it for his buddy, who was able to then track down the seller while still at the show and cancel the transaction. Sort of Adam's own little AG process that bailed out his buddy from getting hoodwinked.

[theshowandme]

The buyer should always get the final say.

[conor912]

I’m fine with scratches cuz that thing’s getting cracked out anyway!

That said, if I was selling a used car and the buyer called me out for not disclosing a scratched up body, I can’t just go on and on about how nice the interior and the mechanics are without addressing their legit concern. For the majority of the hobby nowadays, we need to stop lying to ourselves that the product is the card. The slab is just as important, and sadly sometimes more so.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

The buyer should always get the final say.

Bingo!

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

The buyer should always get the final say.

Originally Posted by perezfan

Bingo!

Not if the buyer does not have all the information. You can't expect eBay authenticators to go to extraordinary lengths to show the buyer what issues they found that don't meet the listing's presentation.

Apparently they do sometimes offer a little explanation (maybe an image, maybe not?) of what is going on, but it's beyond their job to do anything other than match stuff up and see if it all is accurate.

You expect them to whip out their iPhone and find the perfect lighting to show everything? That's just unrealistic.

Hold the seller accountable and let them re-do things the right way. What a good learning experience it will be for them.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Not if the buyer does not have all the information. You can't expect eBay authenticators to go to extraordinary lengths to show the buyer what issues they found that don't meet the listing's presentation.

Apparently they do sometimes offer a little explanation (maybe an image, maybe not?) of what is going on, but it's beyond their job to do anything other than match stuff up and see if it all is accurate.

You expect them to whip out their iPhone and find the perfect lighting to show everything? That's just unrealistic.

Hold the seller accountable and let them re-do things the right way. What a good learning experience it will be for them.

Regarding the part highlighted in bold...

Isn't that pretty much synonymous with the buyer having the final say?

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Regarding the part highlighted in bold...

Isn't that pretty much synonymous with the buyer having the final say?

Make them re-do it = buyer having initial say (since they know from the start)

:genius emoji:

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Not if the buyer does not have all the information. You can't expect eBay authenticators to go to extraordinary lengths to show the buyer what issues they found that don't meet the listing's presentation.

Apparently they do sometimes offer a little explanation (maybe an image, maybe not?) of what is going on, but it's beyond their job to do anything other than match stuff up and see if it all is accurate.

You expect them to whip out their iPhone and find the perfect lighting to show everything? That's just unrealistic.

Hold the seller accountable and let them re-do things the right way. What a good learning experience it will be for them.

What?

If I’m a buyer of an item and it’s about to be rejected, I would like to be told why and be able to decide if I still want the item or not.

I have been personally contacted by this program with that option. It is not always the norm but it was a significant item

Exhibit A

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

What?

If I’m a buyer of an item and it’s about to be rejected, I would like to be told why and be able to decide if I still want the item or not.

I have been personally contacted by this program with that option. It is not always the norm but it was a significant item

Exhibit A

You actually did not have all the information even at that point. What if you agreed to receive it and then threw a fit about how bad the crease actually was in hand? You’d be out of luck.

Why can’t we just hold sellers accountable and stop there?

They don’t need to be coddled with a participation medal and someone else handles the final negotiation on the sale with more complete accuracy, just do things right and thoroughly from the start.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by raulus

If I remember correctly, Adam recently had a buddy who bought a slab at a show that had undergone just such manipulation, and Adam was able to flag it for his buddy, who was able to then track down the seller while still at the show and cancel the transaction. Sort of Adam's own little AG process that bailed out his buddy from getting hoodwinked.

Yup, Anaheim show summer of 2023. Some joker had a whole group of copies that he'd glued into PSA slabs with fake flips. My friend bought a Rose RC and it just looked off to me. I put it under a microscope I bring to shows and saw that it was a copy then inspected the slab and saw that it was crazy-glued shut. He was really lucky to find the guy and 'persuade' him that perhaps a refund was better than an ass-kicking and arrest.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Yup, Anaheim show summer of 2023. Some joker had a whole group of copies that he'd glued into PSA slabs with fake flips. My friend bought a Rose RC and it just looked off to me. I put it under a microscope I bring to shows and saw that it was a copy then inspected the slab and saw that it was crazy-glued shut. He was really lucky to find the guy and 'persuade' him that perhaps a refund was better than an ass-kicking and arrest.

While this specific card was not on EBay at that time, that card could very well have ended up on the Bay.

And this story is the type of reason for the EBay authentication program. They should catch the bad holder and refund the buyer. As noted, both your complaint because the card is really difficult to obtain, and the buyer would want it is one aspect. The other aspect is to check the holder for these types of issues which does include scratching.