BST etiquette am I wrong

[Cody77]

Peter,
Please explain what a reasonable time would be? 1 hour? 5 hours? 2 days? If he wanted the item so badly, why wouldn’t he message me to ask me about how to pay? He didn’t message me at all. He only commented and I had to reach out to him via messenger. He said he was out to dinner in his post on this forum. Why not message me and tell me he would get back to me soon that he was busy but was willing to confirm to me directly. He left a comment and didn’t make any response to me for 5 hours.

If I’m an interested buyer, I’m commenting to time stamp my interest to other interest buyers and then I’m immediately contacting the seller directly to ask about payment information and to confirm I was first to ask about it. If I’m going to be busy, then I also immediately contact the seller and let them know I’ll be busy but will respond in a given amount of time for payment info and such. He did none of that. So in that case I moved on to parties who were showing active interest and made the sell. First come, first served as I told him in the messages this morning.

It isn’t my fault that he was busy and couldn’t respond, it also isn’t my responsibility to know why he wasn’t responding. He should have taken initiative and let me know. I reached out to confirm his interest and got no response. And in that message I mentioned the level of interest and requested a prompt response. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to sit around and wait for a potential buyer to contact me back 5 hours later after leaving a comment. His level of effort, to me, was matching his level of interest, so I moved on with the sale.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cody77

Peter,
Please explain what a reasonable time would be? 1 hour? 5 hours? 2 days? If he wanted the item so badly, why wouldn’t he message me to ask me about how to pay? He didn’t message me at all. He only commented and I had to reach out to him via messenger. He said he was out to dinner in his post on this forum. Why not message me and tell me he would get back to me soon that he was busy but was willing to confirm to me directly. He left a comment and didn’t make any response to me for 5 hours.

If I’m an interested buyer, I’m commenting to time stamp my interest to other interest buyers and then I’m immediately contacting the seller directly to ask about payment information and to confirm I was first to ask about it. If I’m going to be busy, then I also immediately contact the seller and let them know I’ll be busy but will respond in a given amount of time for payment info and such. He did none of that. So in that case I moved on to parties who were showing active interest and made the sell. First come, first served as I told him in the messages this morning.

It isn’t my fault that he was busy and couldn’t respond, it also isn’t my responsibility to know why he wasn’t responding. He should have taken initiative and let me know. I reached out to confirm his interest and got no response. And in that message I mentioned the level of interest and requested a prompt response. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to sit around and wait for a potential buyer to contact me back 5 hours later after leaving a comment. His level of effort, to me, was matching his level of interest, so I moved on with the sale.

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

[Carter08]

I’ll take the Jackson

[nolemmings]

Water under the bridge at this point, but why not state in the original listing that prices are net to seller? It was already stated shipping was included, so presumably he gave thought to the terms of the transaction. The so-called undue delay was unnecessary.

[Vintage Vern]

Well, to be fair, this thread started at 9:53 am by the would be buyer, and it took the seller until 2:12 pm to respond.

Honestly I think some rules may need to be applied to BST for as many issues as there's been lately.

To me I think the initial sale should be handled on the original post page, and details worked out via private message after winner is declared in that post by time-line. It leaves no room for people on either side for questioning the transaction results. Have a mandatory deadline for a follow up to work out the details of transaction, and then go to the next person if it falls through. Also bidders can then be penalized, and seller can ban them if they choose. It also has an effect on bad sellers if they're playing dirty.

Note not saying either of these two are what I'm pointing towards.

Obviously, hiding in the shadows of private messages isn't working for either sides lately. I'm sure it may be the minority, but it sure is getting more frequent. These items aren't easy to come by, so I think that brings out more emotions if something or someone thinks they're getting the shaft.

I'd say the honor system may be in need of some guidelines or rules. Etiquette is different for many. Leon, when I asked, said it should be done in two places. One on board, and by DM. Only 1 poster said I'll take it on board, and another said pm sent. Outside of that it was all private, and left a wide open door for complaints.

I find fault in both parties for not being totally responsive on their own ends, and that left room for errors.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

+1 The best way to do it

[Carter08]

First person to commit to sending cash should get it. Too many people flak out at the last minute or want the price but only if that’s with fee protections included. This is within reason of course. Don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer on this one. Buyer who missed out has a right to feel slighted but I don’t think the seller should be condemned either.

[gregndodgers]

My two cents from a contract law perspective. It appears to me that an important (I.e. “material”) payment term was not included in the seller’s initial BST post. Hence, his initial post was not an offer (which must include all material terms) that could be accepted (to form an actual agreement) with a simple “I will take it.” So seller is free to negotiate with anyone he wants, and sell to the first buyer able to satisfy all material terms. In other words, seller has no obligation to wait for any potential buyers to get back to him.

With all that said, there is a lot of confusion because contract law principles are not being followed on this board. I tried to warn some with my posts in that other thread. For example, some here believe the words “I will take it” seals the deal and binds the parties. That’s not always the case.

The key is the wording on the seller’s initial post. Does it leave out any material terms? If so, it’s not an offer. It’s an invitation to negotiate, and the buyer who is fastest to complete the deal gets the prize.

EDIT: for the layman, a term is “material” in a contract when it’s a condition that if not met, is a deal breaker for either party.

[Republicaninmass]

Any succesful lawsuits against ebay sellers and their "pricing mistakes"? If so, it could lead to a precedent, without it, I doubt anyone would feel obligated to keep their word, even if over a few lousy bucks.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

My two cents from a contract law perspective. It appears to me that an important (I.e. “material”) payment term was not included in the seller’s initial BST post. Hence, his initial post was not an offer (which must include all material terms) that could be accepted (to form an actual agreement) with a simple “I will take it.” So seller is free to negotiate with anyone he wants, and sell to the first buyer able to satisfy all material terms. In other words, seller has no obligation to wait for any potential buyers to get back to him.

With all that said, there is a lot of confusion because contract law principles are not being followed on this board. I tried to warn some with my posts in that other thread. For example, some here believe the words “I will take it” seals the deal and binds the parties. That’s not always the case.

The key is the wording on the seller’s initial post. Does it leave out any material terms? If so, it’s not an offer. It’s an invitation to negotiate, and the buyer who is fastest to complete the deal gets the prize.

EDIT: for the layman, a term is “material” in a contract when it’s a condition that if not met, is a deal breaker for either party.

You should post these legal critiques directly in BST threads. “This transaction between hobby friends violates contract law principles!” Cue Debbie Downer and the muted trombone.

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

You should post these legal critiques directly in BST threads. “This transaction between hobby friends violates contract law principles!” Cue Debbie Downer and the muted trombone.

This particular transaction was fine ~ nothing was violated except the expectation of the buyer (due to the reasons I stated).

[D. Bergin]

Sadly for me, the stuff I post for sale isn’t in demand enough to spark legal arguments by prospective buyers, over who gets to buy it and who doesn’t.

[Cody77]

To me, has nothing to do with generational. If you have interest in something, show it. My post asked to contact me directly, which he did not. His comment also said “if still available”. I already had people contacting me, he wasn’t the first. So why should I wait for him, when he was like the fifth? I hadn’t received confirmation from the others and had given them time. I finally got confirmation from one of the earlier ones (which I noted in my message to him that others were already interested, but I technically hadn’t made the sell yet). But to me, as with any generation, a deal isn’t complete until there is an agreement between parties. I got a notification of interest before his comment and I let him know that in my message. Someone who had interest before him was able to contact me back to confirm before he could, so I did the right thing and sold to that person. Jonathan wasn’t first, was messaged to let him know he wasn’t first and I just wanted confirmation before selling. Had me messaged and explained his absence and response time then I would have accepted that as confirmation of his agreement and held it for him until he got back.

I’ve never done a deal with him before, I have no rapport with him. So how was I to know how serious he was? I made an effort to reach out and let him know there was obviously other interested and a timely response would be needed to secure it. He didn’t do that. Not sure how I’m in the wrong in any of this. Seems like an open and shut case to be honest.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cody77

To me, has nothing to do with generational. If you have interest in something, show it. My post asked to contact me directly, which he did not. His comment also said “if still available”. I already had people contacting me, he wasn’t the first. So why should I wait for him, when he was like the fifth? I hadn’t received confirmation from the others and had given them time. I finally got confirmation from one of the earlier ones (which I noted in my message to him that others were already interested, but I technically hadn’t made the sell yet). But to me, as with any generation, a deal isn’t complete until there is an agreement between parties. I got a notification of interest before his comment and I let him know that in my message. Someone who had interest before him was able to contact me back to confirm before he could, so I did the right thing and sold to that person. Jonathan wasn’t first, was messaged to let him know he wasn’t first and I just wanted confirmation before selling. Had me messaged and explained his absence and response time then I would have accepted that as confirmation of his agreement and held it for him until he got back.

I’ve never done a deal with him before, I have no rapport with him. So how was I to know how serious he was? I made an effort to reach out and let him know there was obviously other interested and a timely response would be needed to secure it. He didn’t do that. Not sure how I’m in the wrong in any of this. Seems like an open and shut case to be honest.

Oy. This is a community. It's based on trust and good faith. Jonathan has 3000 posts and has been here forever. He gets the benefit of a presumption. Why on earth would he say I will take the card if he wasn't serious. That you personally don't know him is irrelevant to how you should behave here.

[Cody77]

I feel like I’m just repeating myself to everyone for no reason. HE WAS NOT THE FIRST TO CONTACT ME ABOUT IT. His comment if it’s still available, then I messaged him letting him know I already had interested parties. So therefore, was letting him know I was in contact with others and would add him to the list in case others fell through. I was confirming he was good with no fee method (many are not due to lack of protection) or if he preferred with fees and if he was willing to cover those fees. I simply sent him a message saying others were interested and if he was ok with doing one of those two things. I never said it was his, or he was first in line, or anything. I reached out and asked him a question and let him know of other interested parties. He never got back to me and the people ahead of him did in fact take the item. So I posted it as sold, before he ever responded back. If the previous potential buyers backed out then it would go to him. But without having an exchange of messages I never got fully into explaining all that. Telling him others were interested I thought was an obvious way to say he wasn’t the first in line and therefore had no claim to the item. At no point did I ever give him the illusion that it was his. But I was going to add him to my list if other interested parties backed out. It happens. I’ve had people not pay or whatever so it goes to the next person. His comment wasn’t the first and a comment before even let him know others had contacted me. I was simply waiting until the payment was made to mark it “sold”.

[Cody77]

My “long derogatory” message to him is posted in my screenshot with his response of legal action. Please explain to me what is “derogatory” in my message to him? At this point, seems like a bunch of his friends piling on to something that has to basis. I’ve posted the screenshots. The only derogatory thing I said to him was after he threatened legal action I told him he was acting like a child. Which was true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cody77

My “long derogatory” message to him is posted in my screenshot with his response of legal action. Please explain to me what is “derogatory” in my message to him? At this point, seems like a bunch of his friends piling on to something that has to basis. I’ve posted the screenshots. The only derogatory thing I said to him was after he threatened legal action I told him he was acting like a child. Which was true.

You told him never to contact you again and you had no interest in dealing with him on anything, in the message he responded to. That's not derogatory?

[Vintage Vern]

Originally Posted by Cody77

I feel like I’m just repeating myself to everyone for no reason. HE WAS NOT THE FIRST TO CONTACT ME ABOUT IT. His comment if it’s still available, then I messaged him letting him know I already had interested parties. So therefore, was letting him know I was in contact with others and would add him to the list in case others fell through. I was confirming he was good with no fee method (many are not due to lack of protection) or if he preferred with fees and if he was willing to cover those fees. I simply sent him a message saying others were interested and if he was ok with doing one of those two things. I never said it was his, or he was first in line, or anything. I reached out and asked him a question and let him know of other interested parties. He never got back to me and the people ahead of him did in fact take the item. So I posted it as sold, before he ever responded back. If the previous potential buyers backed out then it would go to him. But without having an exchange of messages I never got fully into explaining all that. Telling him others were interested I thought was an obvious way to say he wasn’t the first in line and therefore had no claim to the item. At no point did I ever give him the illusion that it was his. But I was going to add him to my list if other interested parties backed out. It happens. I’ve had people not pay or whatever so it goes to the next person. His comment wasn’t the first and a comment before even let him know others had contacted me. I was simply waiting until the payment was made to mark it “sold”.

The problem is. I'll take it was the first you had correct? Who said that first?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Was he the first to say, I'll take it? Sorry, now see same question above.

[Cody77]

He was the only one to comment he would take it. But not the first. Again, hence my message to him saying I had a lot of interest already. But, as i have to keep repeating myself, and item is not sold until the money exchange happens. I messaged him, let him know of other interested parties, was confirming pricing and things and would have let him know I was waiting on others, but again I never got a response from him until 5 hours after his comment. He never confirmed he was first and I never confirmed he was. He just assumed his comment being on there somehow made him the one who got it. I would have explained it all in messages, but with no response from him before it sold I never got the chance until I saw his message this morning and told him I sold it. Then he became upset and messaged Leon and threatened legal action. At no point did I ever say he was first to want it. He assumed his comment made that clear and then expected it to be his. When I tried to explain he wasn’t the first the claim and I was working out details with others and waiting on confirmation of payment to mark sold (like what it shows in my “derogatory” message to him, he threatened legal action and I blocked him after.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

+1
I once held an item for 2 days after an "I'll take it" the buyer was fairly new to the sub and I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I also had two back up offers and communicated with them what was going on. Sent a "are you still interested?" day 1 and a "last call" day two. Sold it to the back up buyer.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

5 hours is an eternity today with everyone texting, DMing and retweeting while driving. 98% of those walking around shows are on their phones while walking and that includes the over 65 crowd too.

Everyone is going to have their own idea of what is reasonable. Might be time for some more detailed rules for the BST.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Vintage Vern

That needs to change IMO. That's where the sale is started. Everything should go through that, not DMs.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

5 hours is an eternity today with everyone texting, DMing and retweeting while driving. 98% of those walking around shows are on their phones while walking and that includes the over 65 crowd too.

Everyone is going to have their own idea of what is reasonable. Might be time for some more detailed rules for the BST.

Good luck with the idea of trying to enforce detailed rules on the B/S/T. There's a rule posted at the top of the board about people needing their full name available on a post if they comment on someone or on a specific company, and plenty of people can't manage to follow that. I doubt Leon or anyone else wants to have to police the B/S/T hourly.

[Vintage Vern]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Good luck with the idea of trying to enforce detailed rules on the B/S/T. There's a rule posted at the top of the board about people needing their full name available on a post if they comment on someone or on a specific company, and plenty of people can't manage to follow that. I doubt Leon or anyone else wants to have to police the B/S/T hourly.

Pretty simple. Its called accountability.

You don't follow the rules, you loose the privilege. We can all do our part. How hard is it to have to say, "I'll take it" in the initial thread and do everything else you're not comfortable with via DM. After all its luck of the draw to whomever sees it first, and pulls the trigger.

I'd rather have the I'll take it on the original post and if the deal falls flat for any reason it goes to the next person. It helps if the seller puts in all the wants in the original post. Money options, what's included what isn't, and what is up to the buyer above the initial price like insurance or type of shipping. Or you can work it out via DM, and if not happy as a buyer the next man or gal up has their turn in order from the original post.

The other option is to have all the backdoor BS of DMs, and people being upset, which is becoming more frequent.

It protects both parties, and it will be clear as day instead of mud. It doesn’t have to be patrolled, just enforced for either party that breaks the rules set in place. Yes, some may still get screwed out of something, but the instigator will loose their privileges.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Vintage Vern

Pretty simple. Its called accountability.

You don't follow the rules, you loose the privilege. We can all do our part. How hard is it to have to say, "I'll take it" in the initial thread and do everything else you're not comfortable with via DM. After all its luck of the draw to whomever sees it first, and pulls the trigger.

I'd rather have the I'll take it on the original post and if the deal falls flat for any reason it goes to the next person. It helps if the seller puts in all the wants in the original post. Money options, what's included what isn't, and what is up to the buyer above the initial price like insurance or type of shipping. Or you can work it out via DM, and if not happy as a buyer the next man or gal up has their turn in order from the original post.

The other option is to have all the backdoor BS of DMs, and people being upset, which is becoming more frequent.

It protects both parties, and it will be clear as day instead of mud.

There have been probably 10s of thousands of transactions on the B/S/T without any issues with the way things are now set up. A few recent complaints don't seem to be reason to try to force everyone to follow some set of rules that can never be enforced.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

There have been probably 10s of thousands of transactions on the B/S/T without any issues with the way things are now set up. A few recent complaints don't seem to be reason to try to force everyone to follow some set of rules that can never be enforced.

Agreed. If people just do the right thing, and I think almost all do, there are no issues.

[Vintage Vern]

Originally Posted by jayshum

There have been probably 10s of thousands of transactions on the B/S/T without any issues with the way things are now set up. A few recent complaints don't seem to be reason to try to force everyone to follow some set of rules that can never be enforced.

I've witnessed many of issues, and I'm far from an old timer here.

How hard is it to follow a simple, fair for all, outlined etiquette guideline for sellers and buyers?

Every issue I've seen falls directly on DMs. That's 100% reversible doing everything on the initial post
There's no gray area for either side to hide behind. Why wouldn't you want that protection?

Go 2 posts up for exhibit A.
When you have two different buying avenues, its gonna have bad implications.