When and how do you decide to have photos PSA-certified?

Exhibitman · #1 04-05-2025, 11:39 AM

The dating argument still fails for lack of evidence. Unless you have some sort of extrinsic proof of date, like a mailing envelope, you can't conclude to enough of a certainty that the photo was printed in any specific time period, or how long it was printed for. Of course, you can narrow it down somewhat when it comes to identified items, e.g., if you know that a company made an item and then went down the toilet in a specific year, their products are pretty much capped at that year at the latest. But with an active company trying to make money, not cater to us nerds, anything else is speculation and is very likely wrong because they used their intellectual property as long as it paid. I'll give you a concrete example: the designation of Salutations Exhibit cards as a 1939-1946 issue.

The truth is that some Salutations designs were issued in 1939 but some were issued as late as 1960. ESCO re-used the same art for a decade or more, retiring a design when the player retired. Ted Williams, for example, retired after the 1960 season and his Salutations card (the no #9 showing version) can be found on uncut sheets of Exhibit cards with Rocky Colavito as a Tiger. Colavito was traded from Cleveland to Detroit on April 17, 1960. The Colavito card in the Detroit uni cannot predate the trade, so the Williams card on the same sheet was made after April 17, 1960. The Williams card was reprinted for at least 14 years after the purported end of its print run, which is why it is easy to find a high-grade example. That does not stop sellers from offering the card as a 1939-46 card. They, and many of the public, assume that all Salutations Williams cards were made in the 1939-46 timeframe because some Salutations Williams cards were made between 1939 and 1946 and someone, somewhere, sometime (possibly Woody Scharf when he was doing his first work on the classification of these cards) decided on those dates, the guides picked it up, the TPGs then followed suit, etc. This plagues a lot of what we researchers do. Look at the kerfluffle over the definitive dating of the 1947 Bond Bread Robinson portrait. People with vested interests in that not being his first MLB card (like those with massive $ into the 1949 Leaf) tried their best to ignore facts.

Your Robinson photo is freakin' awesome but from where I sit, there isn't convincing proof of when it was made. And just to prove I have skin in this game, here's my Musial:

I'd love to get a date on it, but I don't have the evidence. I do know that it came out of a collection with a Ruben Gomez in the same format. Gomez pitched for the Giants starting in 1953, so that sets the baseline on when his photo could have been made. The Musial has the same image as the 1947 Bond Bread but no proof it was printed in 1947.

Johnphotoman · #2 04-05-2025, 12:23 PM

Exhibitman- great way to sum-up the situation with the photos. And yes at the same time - that is what is so frustrating. You and I have photos that match Bond Bread cards that came out in 1947, you would think that the photos came out at the same-time, if not first, but some of the Bond Bread images were on cards circa 1940. How can anyone put a date on the photos?

Yes we can look at the photo paper and maybe put an age base on that, but as you have said it is not an accurate date, it is a best guess situation.

But I ask the question, do collectors find the photos I and you have valuable, just in the photo alone, or do they look for value in what Type the photo is: Type,1,2 or 3. John

Exhibitman · #3 04-05-2025, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

But I ask the question, do collectors find the photos I and you have valuable, just in the photo alone, or do they look for value in what Type the photo is: Type,1,2 or 3. John

Yes. Depends on who you ask. Depends on why they are buying. I happen to collect team issues, publicity photos, etc. I prefer those to regular photos. If I have the choice between a 'Type I' 1958 photo of Jim Brown and his 1958 'Type III' team issue for my PC, same pose, I would prefer to own the latter:

If you include a nice snapshot in the blend, for my PC I would naturally go there because it is the closest thing to a card.

If I am trying to make money and the cost to me is equal, I am going for the most valuable. At this point, it is the Type I photo. That may change over time. If the relative values of a team issue and a Type I from the same year of the same player move closer to equal, I may opt for the TI as an investment in the hope that I can buy more of them and they will outperform the Type I over time. If I knew the answer I would be buying, not sharing the information. I haven't a clue, so I just collect what I like and hope it works out. Gabby agrees:

lumberjack · #4 04-05-2025, 04:54 PM

The market will determine the value of your photos. As to the classification, what we are discussing is beyond Types. Someone mentioned earlier, "souvenir," which is very appropriate. This would cover team issue, Jay Publications and the photos with script "autographs."

Photos used for advertising, like the Rawlings 8x10s from 60 years ago....They should simply be classified as "advertising."

There was a Ruth photo, classified as a Type II earlier in this thread. The photo is perfect, that's the only way you can describe it, but its value is diminished, quite unfairly, because of when it was printed. I don't get it.

Once again, the market will eventually shake all of this out.

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