New lawsuit accuses PWCC of massive shill bidding

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nearly all purchases are voluntary. How does that negate whether the price was driven by fraud? In my example I was "willing" to pay the higher price because I assumed the prior sale honestly reflected the market.

I guess that gets back to the role of comps and just how much stock we should put in them. Just because someone else made a stupid decision about how much they were willing to pay doesn't mean that I should be similarly inclined.

But it also gets to trying to shift blame for your own stupid decisions. I tend to take a dim view when it comes to shifting the responsibility for our own actions, particularly when the demand is to be compensated for it.

Edited to add: To some extent, I'll also suggest that viewing cardboard as an investment is a large part of the problem. If you view the cards as something you enjoy, that maybe will hold its value if you're lucky, then your approach to setting a price that works for you is more about what it's worth to you, and less about what you think it will be worth in the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame
But I know
It's my own damn fault

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

I guess that gets back to the role of comps and just how much stock we should put in them. Just because someone else made a stupid decision about how much they were willing to pay doesn't mean that I should be similarly inclined.

But it also gets to trying to shift blame for your own stupid decisions. I tend to take a dim view when it comes to shifting the responsibility for our own actions, particularly when the demand is to be compensated for it.

Edited to add: To some extent, I'll also suggest that viewing cardboard as an investment is a large part of the problem. If you view the cards as something you enjoy, that maybe will hold its value if you're lucky, then your approach to setting a price that works for you is more about what it's worth to you, and less about what you think it will be worth in the future.

Totally agree with you. But the comps value has overtaken the hobby. You go to a card show, you really not negoiating with the dealer, you are negoiating with comps. Same on FB or here, its all about comps.

And the investment piece is the new norm, sadly. I love cards and enjoy cards, but I feel like the ones who actually enjoy these things are getting smaller and smaller.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Totally agree with you. But the comps value has overtaken the hobby. You go to a card show, you really not negoiating with the dealer, you are negoiating with comps. Same on FB or here, its all about comps.

And the investment piece is the new norm, sadly. I love cards and enjoy cards, but I feel like the ones who actually enjoy these things are getting smaller and smaller.

For the cards in question, were there really a lot of comps?

Most of the stuff seems like it was shiny, new, and limited production stuff where there probably was little or nothing in the way of comps.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

For the cards in question, were there really a lot of comps?

Most of the stuff seems like it was shiny, new, and limited production stuff where there probably was little or nothing in the way of comps.

In PWCC, tons of vintage. And most/if not all of the sales were always higher than sales on other platforms.

If I saw a PWCC on a vintage card sale, I was always leary.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

In PWCC, tons of vintage. And most/if not all of the sales were always higher than sales on other platforms.

If I saw a PWCC on a vintage card sale, I was always leary.

Right. But wasn't this lawsuit from Alt based on very specific stuff that they bought that was modern? And wasn't most of that modern stuff manufactured rarities, such that there were very few direct comps?

I suppose you could always sort of attempt to convert your comps across lines. If MJ's 86/87 Fleer in PSA 10 is worth $900k, then some over-hyped football rookie in the rainbow refractor 1/1 manufactured rarity must be worth at least half that!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

In PWCC, tons of vintage. And most/if not all of the sales were always higher than sales on other platforms.

If I saw a PWCC on a vintage card sale, I was always leary.

Agreed, but for me, mostly for other reasons.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed, but for me, mostly for other reasons.

Same here (snip snip).

[edhans]

I've never completely bought into the argument that shill bidding affects market values. Obviously if a lot is won by a consignor or someone acting on his behalf, that does artificially inflate the market value (comps) of the card(s) in that lot.

But if the lot is won by a buyer not connected to the auction house or consignor, can we really argue that the value is artificially inflated? Other than the public reporting, how is that transaction different than a buyer negotiating and purchasing the item from a dealer at a show? There is an independent buyer and seller who have agreed to a price. Does that not establish a market price? Why do we need a third party (the underbidder) to establish a market?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

In PWCC, tons of vintage. And most/if not all of the sales were always higher than sales on other platforms.

If I saw a PWCC on a vintage card sale, I was always leary.

HMMMM. Sounds vaguely familiar to what's currently happening at "PWCC by Fanatics" right now.