Does PSA give favoritism to certain dealers/customers?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't have the time, energy, or motivation to reproduce all the threads from Blowout identifying altered cards and their sources, all the analyses of submissions they did, or to more importantly to reconstruct all the countless conversations I've had over the course of decades that inform my views on this subject. The question was posed, and I offered my views, which apparently many others share. You are free to believe what you want and to do whatever burden of proof thing you wish.

I will, of course, but the burden of proof is on those making such serious accusations. So far, I haven't seen squat.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I will, of course, but the burden of proof is on those making such serious accusations. So far, I haven't seen squat.

The OP asked for people's views. By stating mine I did not assume any burden to prove anything to anyone or convince someone who has not read anything on the subject even though lots has been posted. Nor did anyone else who is of the same view, and they are legion. If you are interested start with the Blowout threads, there's a sticky at the top of the baseball forum and go from there. Read the Joe C. thread I linked, although that just involves preferential grading not altered cards. With all respect, saying "I haven't seen squat" doesn't mean much when you haven't read what is out there.

[Bigdaddy]

In response to the OP's question:

Is a bullfrog waterproof?

[Topnotchsy]

I see a lot of people opining, but would love actual data on this. I have to wonder if people are confusing noise for bias.

It's a sample of 1, but an auction house submitted a card for me recently to PSA and it got a solid 1-2 grades below what I anticipated.

Not arguing that any of the companies are above doing so, just would love actual data.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I see a lot of people opining, but would love actual data on this. I have to wonder if people are confusing noise for bias.

It's a sample of 1, but an auction house submitted a card for me recently to PSA and it got a solid 1-2 grades below what I anticipated.

Not arguing that any of the companies are above doing so, just would love actual data.

TPGs do not tell us who submit cards. There is no data. One can try to reconstruct subs to make observations but with millions of cards out there that would be an absurd project. And what would be the point anyhow?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The OP asked for people's views. By stating mine I did not assume any burden to prove anything to anyone or convince someone who has not read anything on the subject even though lots has been posted. Nor did anyone else who is of the same view, and they are legion. If you are interested start with the Blowout threads, there's a sticky at the top of the baseball forum and go from there. Read the Joe C. thread I linked, although that just involves preferential grading not altered cards. With all respect, saying "I haven't seen squat" doesn't mean much when you haven't read what is out there.

Fair enough. But just because I was looking for anyone who would make such a serious accusation as that the TPGs are in collusion with their biggest customers to game the system in their favor to show at least a modicum of backup for that claim doesn't mean I wanted to do a lot of homework to develop an opinion of my own. That burden should be on those answering the question in the positive, a very serious charge, indeed. And I would still be interested in some details in this thread about how this all works, i.e., is it just the very biggest AHs and dealers among all the big ones? are they paying extra for these preferences, and if not how are the TPGs benefiting from activities that could sink their entire business if this became widely believed? Why would collectors continue to participate in a game they thought was rigged against them and costing them tons of money? I don't see it, I just don't. Isolated examples? Sure. Endemic to the hobby? Then why does such a corrupt hobby continue to exist, if not flourish?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Then why does such a corrupt hobby continue to exist, if not flourish?

Not passing judgment on the facts here, but as a practical matter, lots of insalubrious hobbies, industries, and organizations continue for a long, long time simply because we all decide we want to keep it going. Whatever its flaws, the participants decide that it's worth having and continuing. At least until such time as they decide that it's no longer worth continuing, or it gets supplanted by a better option.

Since you seem to like examples, without naming specifics, just about every company is flawed in some fashion, often deeply, yet its customers keep coming back, often because there is no better alternative. Certainly you could make a similar argument about the business of producing and distributing controlled substances, although their addictive properties may be an element that sets them apart from garden variety pursuits like collecting cardboard.

And if you want to get more metaphysical, then you could point to just about every religion and government as being in the same boat. In some cases, including that whole notion of corruption that you raised.

Note for Leon and the moderators: The last paragraph was deliberately generic to avoid touching on religion or politics in any specific fashion, but I'm happy to revise if I've crossed the line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Fair enough. But just because I was looking for anyone who would make such a serious accusation as that the TPGs are in collusion with their biggest customers to game the system in their favor to show at least a modicum of backup for that claim doesn't mean I wanted to do a lot of homework to develop an opinion of my own. That burden should be on those answering the question in the positive, a very serious charge, indeed. And I would still be interested in some details in this thread about how this all works, i.e., is it just the very biggest AHs and dealers among all the big ones? are they paying extra for these preferences, and if not how are the TPGs benefiting from activities that could sink their entire business if this became widely believed? Why would collectors continue to participate in a game they thought was rigged against them and costing them tons of money? I don't see it, I just don't. Isolated examples? Sure. Endemic to the hobby? Then why does such a corrupt hobby continue to exist, if not flourish?

To answer your last question, because, as I like to say, stuff trumps all. This hobby for many if not most people has become all about the numbers on the flip. The more slabbed cards are out there with high grades, the more money everyone makes. Take care of your best customers, and they will keep coming back. Do you think if PSA had not taken care of high volume modern submitters it would have been able to displace and crush Beckett which at one time was the market leader in modern? People submit to make money. People make money by getting higher grades. Back in the day, vintage grew the same way. Do you really think all those 8s and 9s filling up the set registries are pristine cards from virgin sets?

[Keith H. Thompson]

the higher the grade, the more value is perceived by bidders and sellers ? It seems logical to me to believe that AHs feel the same way.

By way of a specific example, I recall when a lady collector was consigning her modest collection to REA. She told us on Net54 that she offered to have her cards graded and assume the cost. REA politely told her not to. They would do so. The reason may have been that they could get a faster turn around (this was a long time ago). The consignment was heavy in DeLongs, and REA would be in a position to educate the graders on the special problems with that issue (narrow borders) . My own thoughts on the matter say that where money is involved, and no way to "prove" anything like in a court of law, that "devil take the hindmost."

[hammertime]

I've bought some cheap 70s and 80s HOF slabs from 4SC to crack out and get signed. Usually PSA 9s. I have been absolutely shocked at how awful many of them look after cracking them. 6s and 7s at best.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by hammertime

I've bought some cheap 70s and 80s HOF slabs from 4SC to crack out and get signed. Usually PSA 9s. I have been absolutely shocked at how awful many of them look after cracking them. 6s and 7s at best.

Hankphenom is going to need to see proof of that. Do you have video, affidavits and expert witnesses? Anything short of that is just disgruntled collectors acting up and he will just not believe it.