Disturbing Confession ...

[aljurgela]

In the off case that i am collecting autographs...

And a few vintage baseballs...

I have a few modern autos, but most were obtained in person or pack pulled from the major card companies. I would still think that most of those are legit... but who knows.

[BioCRN]

Autograph evolution happens, especially in this era where players/people are paid to sign 1000s of cards.

Sometimes it takes a step forward, sometimes it takes a step back. A lot of guys will have various signatures depending on the era they're signing.

Derniche Valdez 2023 vs 2024 auto...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/317080243218
https://www.ebay.com/itm/226761140850

...and here's a reality check for why some people have those sloppy scribble autos. We're losing Andre Dawson and Mariano Rivera level autographs for scribbles because of things like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j8F3_rKCU8

[nolemmings]

The use of Sharpies doesn't help matters. Way too wide so that the letters become indecipherable. Here is one of Harmon Killebrew, who had one of the most beautiful signatures I have ever seen (not mine):

[Fandom0610]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I don't really understand the allure of modern autograph collecting...most modern sigs aren't signatures at all. They're lines...or squigglies. Most are unintelligible as signatures.

Exactly. Its just a quick scribble or sloppy initial. Theres a few modern players I would be interested in collecting but technology and fakes are getting better every year so who knows what I'm really buying. And if I had any I would never feel 100% certain I had the real thing unless I was there to get the signature.

This problem is only going to get worse. Theres too much money to be made with all these celebrities, "influencers", and kids entering the hobby.

[jchcollins]

Geez, what kind of drugs was that guy on?

I’m sure at least part of that is true and that is precisely why the only autos I’ve ever given a damn about are ones I get in person, or on the rare occasions in my hobby career where I decide to do TTM runs.


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[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Same here. Always a signed Fleer Jordan hitting the market, Jackies, Mantles, etc. How many of these are actually real ??

How many 1933 Goudey Gehrig's and Ruth's have hit the market recently? All the sudden people found these in their collections that were handed down and wondered if these guys' cards were worth something?

I never trusted this space of the hobby. Nor the game used area. Cards are bad enough but signed and game used requires more suspension of disbelief than I can muster up.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If I understand this, and I probably don't, the opinion sellers were bypassed. These fakes were created by auto pen, then had fake authentication holograms/stickers/whatever type of certs added.

So, no, that's another sad thing besides the corpse. The opinion sellers didn't make a profit from this.

Oh, then that is double sadness.

But don't people who buy things with certs/holos/etc then usually get them opinionated because the slab is a good way to keep the item protected?

[packs]

I still have a lot of practical questions about this confession.

If you make a fake LOA sticker and cert for a major retailer in the hobby, it is easy to search for it in the LOA database and see it's not there. I always check but I guess some people don't. Even people who are paying thousands of dollars for somebody like Brady, apparently.

Autopen is not magic. It should be fairly easy to distinguish it from a real signature, even when looked at by someone who is not an "expert". It's not all that different from distinguishing between a xerox and a live document. It's hard to imagine so many LOAs being issued for what are said to be autopen signatures.

[bleeckerstreetcards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That’s what everyone thinks. I try to buy mostly checks but even that isn’t infallible. There’s just too many Robinsons, Clementes, Aarons, signed vintage cards and sets, that suddenly pop up in every auction in the hundreds every month. Did collectors who owned them not realize they had value until recently and were hiding them, refusing to sell them?

of course the occam's razor and logical answer here is that the prices have gone up in the last 3 years, so people are more willing to sell than ever before. they are now often one of the central focal points of many auction catalogs (post-war section) and 10 yrs ago would be buried in the back pages or put in lots.

it is not reasonable to assume that forgers are now passing the most scrutinized and high value autographed cards by Keating/PSA and auction house experts. it is also important to note that most auctions that showcase a significant amount of signed cards are due to consigners who were graphers/TTMers in the 50s and 60s that are now ready to part with them, or have passed on and the collections have been consigned by descendants. i have been personally involved in 4 such cases.

yes, i know what my signature says and the old tagline "no conflict, no interest". FWIW this ring has been primarily focused on modern stars (Judge, Gretzky, Brady, etc.) so they can sell high volume into high demand markets through ebay and online stores, not the best of the best in auctions.

[ruth-gehrig]

A bit more detail

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/b...008C7489478H2S

[Fandom0610]

Originally Posted by packs

I still have a lot of practical questions about this confession.

If you make a fake LOA sticker and cert for a major retailer in the hobby, it is easy to search for it in the LOA database and see it's not there. I always check but I guess some people don't. Even people who are paying thousands of dollars for somebody like Brady, apparently.

Autopen is not magic. It should be fairly easy to distinguish it from a real signature, even when looked at by someone who is not an "expert". It's not all that different from distinguishing between a xerox and a live document. It's hard to imagine so many LOAs being issued for what are said to be autopen signatures.

From what ive seen most don't have LOA's with the item picture on it. Theyre simply just the psa/jsa/panini stickers on the item. Some might have a coa but what theyre doing is finding a legit item certified by psa or jsa and copying that cert # onto another sticker and putting it on the item. Alot of items dont have the picture of the item on the database. It'll just say "Kobe bryant 8x10" on the psa or jsa website. So as long as that item is a Kobe signed 8x10 with the same cert # nobody would know because theres no picture to reference.

[pawpawdiv9]

I thought this was the OP’s confession that he sits in a small room smelling his 100yr old tobacco cards

[4815162342]

Confirmation: Autograph dealer identified as man found dead in Indiana raid of fake memorabilia

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...ke-memorabilia

[homerunhitter]

I bet eBay will have ALOT of new listings in the next few weeks as people will be dumping their items on eBay to get rid of them! After all of this, Why would anyone want anything with a TPA authentication sticker on it? And let’s not get started on fake slabs! That’s another can of worms! Buckle up, this hobby is above to hit a shit storm in regards to fake items in our hobby! Time to get the popcorn ready!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

I bet eBay will have ALOT of new listings in the next few weeks as people will be dumping their items on eBay to get rid of them! And let’s not get started on fake slabs! That’s another can of worms!

Would the authenticity guarantee process catch the fake slabs for anything sold over $250? Or do we think that the fake slabs are so well executed that they would slip right through?

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by raulus

Would the authenticity guarantee process catch the fake slabs for anything sold over $250? Or do we think that the fake slabs are so well executed that they would slip right through?

My opinion is I think they are so well executed that they would slip by. But I could be wrong. Makes me want to sell all of my PSA slabs right now because we Just don’t know anymore with the way the Fraud and scammers are hitting the hobby right now.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Would the authenticity guarantee process catch the fake slabs for anything sold over $250? Or do we think that the fake slabs are so well executed that they would slip right through?

It depends on if someone is trying to make the slabs in their garage with Plexi glass and a hammer and chisel or have access to real machinery. Nothing against anyone's job but printing cards and molding plastic are jobs that can easily be done by former or future McDonalds employees. I have friends that have worked in both fields and a couple of them are great people but dumb as a post. For example people make fake Rolex watches. The $200 models will fool anyone who doesn't really know watches. The $500 models will fool many Rolex owners and the $1200 models are so good you can actually swap out parts between a real and counterfeit ones. But yes molding plastic or printing simple pictures is near impossible to replicate. It amazes me every single day this hobby hasn't crashed and burned from all the corruption that openly runs rampant.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by raulus

Would the authenticity guarantee process catch the fake slabs for anything sold over $250? Or do we think that the fake slabs are so well executed that they would slip right through?

I don't recall seeing anything in this that mentions slabbed autographs; it only talks about faked autographs and counterfeit holograms/stickers.

It sounds to me that it involves non-slabbed items, where there's only a hologram/sticker on the item to "certify authenticity".

Steve

[egri]

Originally Posted by bnorth

There have been several of those threads in the 10+ years I have been on here. Then the bigger auto collectors and sellers always come on and say don't worry it isn't true most autographs are real.

I find it funny all the people saying that is why I stayed away from autographs when the same exact thing is and has been going on in the card world. If you think fake slabs aren't a HUGE thing, LOL, good luck with that. The grading companies adding pics of graded cards anyone can lookup has greatly helped. At least now you can't crack a newly graded card and put that flip and a lower grade card into a newly made slab without everybody knowing the card is different.

There is a fake copy of pretty much everything made being. I hear southeast Asia is a good place to find those items or find someone that will make them for you.

I suspect many of the people saying that wouldn't bat an eyelash at prewar cards that are 5s or above, and I'm skeptical. Jefferson Burdick's collection is full of rounded corners, creases, paper loss, and discoloration, and he was collecting as the cards came out. Either he was stepping over flawless examples to pick up damaged ones, or many of the prewar cards in high-graded slabs today have had work done.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

The sort of items he sold seem to be the ones I would see and immediately think, that's fake. It's almost like junk wax the amount of signed jerseys, 8x10 generic dime color photos, footballs, baseballs, large oversized "art". You see with superstar Autographs at low tier auctions and many shows.

Those booths have always just been instant passes because I just have never trusted them.

I feel like the amount of framed jerseys especially, all framed the exact same way all in the exact same layout and style all with perfect autos all using super low quality chinese jerseys was a dead giveaway.

Again, I think it’s all about this market right here. These sellers are neck deep in modern + the biggest names of the past 50 years, especially all-time level QBs and wrestlers. I’ve seen wayyy too many JSA, Tristar, and Fanatics stickers on cheap bagged and framed items to make sense. Anyone who’s been to a show has. It’s like in ‘98 when dealers had stacks of McGwire and Sosa but they’d barely signed anything.

Fanatics knew about it for 7+ years and now own the modern hobby. F—k those guys.

The good news is, your vintage slabs should be safe (at least from this operation).

[Brent G.]

The truth is likely somewhere in between what the dead guy said and this Fanatics statement. I’d probably lean more toward dead guy, who caused them to create a new sticker (silently, I assume) two years ago. i suppose no company would admit to 80% of merch bearing their seal being fake.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

The truth is likely somewhere in between what the dead guy said and this Fanatics statement. I’d probably lean more toward dead guy, who caused them to create a new sticker two years ago.

I agree. Dead Guy was copying product from multiple companies, and over a long period of time. If a single autopen was being used, and I'll guess an experienced operator could get 2 signatures a minute, the guy working 8 hours could crank out about 1,000 signatures a day. Even at half that, an addicted criminal could conceivably make around a million fake signatures a year. How many years was he doing this before Fanatics got wise to it? Then add the two years it took for the operation to be brought down. Any way one looks at it, it's a huge number.

I also think the fact modern autographs are often merely scribbles, or sloppy initials, made them much easier to fake convincingly, and quicker to make.

It will be interesting to see how the "hobby" responds. Will it just be one collective shrug of the shoulders, or will people bail out of modern sigs and turn their attention to other sports collectibles, like memorabilia, game used, etc.? Everything can be faked, but autographs are by far the easiest, and Dead Guy has apparently thoroughly saturated that arena with fakes, at least modern.

My guess is, Fanatics and other companies will come up with better authentication/verification methods, and business will continue as usual. Autographs were never my thing, and I collect absolutely nothing that is modern, yet I feel very bad for all the people who have been victimized or are worried they may have been.

[Brent G.]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the FBI agents on the case make that quick drive from Westfield to Rosemont in 12 days to shut down the people selling this crap.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Since every thread needs a picture here is a very accurately graded card from PSA. Please ignore the extreme diamond cut. Honestly I am impressed they got it to fit in the slab.

I would argue it's not diamond cut (which means, to me the corners aren't 90 degrees) but rather the image on the back is tilted.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I would argue it's not diamond cut (which means, to me the corners aren't 90 degrees) but rather the image on the back is tilted.

I think I agree, but shouldn't that still preclude it from grading 9?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I would argue it's not diamond cut (which means, to me the corners aren't 90 degrees) but rather the image on the back is tilted.

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think I agree, but shouldn't that still preclude it from grading 9?

LOL, Scott I have bragged about your card descriptions before so please put you glasses back on and look again as it is diamond cut and not just a little.

EDIT: I added a square cornered red line to the image to help.

[ullmandds]

diamond cut? or is the print off kilter? the card itself looks square?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

At the risk of invalidating your previous praise I'm not 100% sure. The card is not square in the slab, which makes the left and right sides look off, but the front image with the vertical lines doesn't look diamond cut, so I think it's a tilted print job on the back. Run through the press a little crooked somehow, but cut correctly. Obviously there's no benefit to me if the card is good or not so it's the unbiased opinion of one guy who hasn't held the card in his hand, your mileage may vary!

and yes I agree it still shouldn't be a 9, but sometimes they don't pay enough attention to backs

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Fandom0610

From what ive seen most don't have LOA's with the item picture on it. Theyre simply just the psa/jsa/panini stickers on the item. Some might have a coa but what theyre doing is finding a legit item certified by psa or jsa and copying that cert # onto another sticker and putting it on the item. Alot of items dont have the picture of the item on the database. It'll just say "Kobe bryant 8x10" on the psa or jsa website. So as long as that item is a Kobe signed 8x10 with the same cert # nobody would know because theres no picture to reference.

Good points. Kind of sad all the way around, including someone going to such involvement they felt the best way out was to lose their life

[Kco]

Originally Posted by packs

I still have a lot of practical questions about this confession.

If you make a fake LOA sticker and cert for a major retailer in the hobby, it is easy to search for it in the LOA database and see it's not there. I always check but I guess some people don't. Even people who are paying thousands of dollars for somebody like Brady, apparently.

Autopen is not magic. It should be fairly easy to distinguish it from a real signature, even when looked at by someone who is not an "expert". It's not all that different from distinguishing between a xerox and a live document. It's hard to imagine so many LOAs being issued for what are said to be autopen signatures.

This is all correct, autopen is very much detectable and in many cases fiarly obvious to decipher from a natural signature.

[Brent G.]

Probably not for a dad/mom who never collected and their kid wants a piece of their favorite player. Those are the top marks here — there are millions of them.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

Probably not for a dad/mom who never collected and their kid wants a piece of their favorite player. Those are the top marks here — there are millions of them.

Yes, and especially when the "autograph" is a couple barely distinguishable initials maybe followed by a squiggle or dash.

[oldjudge]

I feel bad for kids who saved up to buy something signed by one of their heroes. If I owned Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle or Robinson signed cards I'd be shitting my pants now. If you can forge a signature on a football you can certainly do it on a card.

[bleeckerstreetcards]

Listen to old judge and sell me your signed Ruth’s and Robinsons please


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[calvindog]

As long as the autographed cards are in slabs they won’t lose their value.

I wonder why no signed Ruth rookie has ever been found? I guess he just signed on the later, less valuable cards.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

"Mistermancave has sold over 4 million items. Yes million. Surpassed 350 million in sales.

I had every hologram we ever made extracted from every companies database and put into excel. So with a touch of a button I can type mahomes and a bin shoots out with every Mahomes sticker hologram or coa card. Every item automated and sorted. I’d spend countless hours scrolling excel finding my next score. It was a thrill having every athlete in every sport from every authentication company at your finger tips to produce the signature flawless authenticate it with flawless bootleg holograms and then sell it for half of what a company does by the 1000s."

What I don't understand is that the fellow implied that he was a computer hacking whiz as well as a master counterfeiter. Well why then didn't he have a fake ID or three set up for when he was on the verge of being exposed? With all the money he made, he could then have easily lived very comfortably in several places after disappearing, e.g. a luxury condo in a big city such as New York where nobody knows his neighbours and out-of-the-way seasonal resorts from Maine to Wisconsin to Alabama and Louisiana accustomed to tourists coming and going? Why did he choose to eat a bullet instead?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by calvindog

As long as the autographed cards are in slabs they won’t lose their value.

I disagree. Why would anyone pay big money for an autographed card that they fear could be a fake and incur the risk of the card being exposed, or even fingered, as a fake?

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I disagree. Why would anyone pay big money for an autographed card that they fear could be a fake and incur the risk of the card being exposed, or even fingered, as a fake?

I think that risk was there even before this news. Several collectors wouldn’t touch post production autographs. Several collectors would. I don’t think this news sways anyone. And I don’t think this frankly changes the outlook on slabbed autos. What it probably does is further entrenches the collectors who don’t collect signed slabs.

I own two Ruth autos - both slabbed, great cards, and I know a few collectors that would never want it, and I know several collectors that would love for me to sell it. And I’ll be bidding for another one when the right one pops up.

Thats the beauty of the this hobby; everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

Sincerely, fake autograph collector

[bleeckerstreetcards]

Why would anyone buy a PSA 8/9 prewar card that has arguably higher risk of being trimmed / altered? Theres risk in every high value card purchase, and this scheme mentions nothing of older guys.

To your question on Ruth, there is a headin home signed Ruth, and multiple exhibits from the 20s. The “rookies” have a tiny population compared to Goudeys and in most cases were not marketed to kids the way his later issues were, so again simple answer… higher supply in the hands of more kids led to higher chance of those cards being brought to Ruth for signing. Not to mention in his rookie era he was not swarmed for autograph requests the way he would be in the 1930s.

The extrapolation of forged Aaron Judge and Kobe Bryant signatures on modern 8x10 photos and framed jerseys then meaning the most valuable, highly scrutinized, low pop signed vintage cards should be questioned is a leap in judgment I do not understand.

The risk in this guys modern autographs were known about by industry autograph experts for years, if you are tracking what those closest to it are saying. And the marks for this ring were largely the unsuspecting mom or dad buying a gift or item for their son or mancave at a (suspicious to hobbyists) discount, that is how he drove high volume sales. Forging one autograph of Babe Ruth on a Goudey card and getting it past the entire industry is highly unlikely to be successful and simply not how we know criminal minds typically work.


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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

I think that risk was there even before this news. Several collectors wouldn’t touch post production autographs. Several collectors would. I don’t think this news sways anyone. And I don’t think this frankly changes the outlook on slabbed autos. What it probably does is further entrenches the collectors who don’t collect signed slabs.

I own two Ruth autos - both slabbed, great cards, and I know a few collectors that would never want it, and I know several collectors that would love for me to sell it. And I’ll be bidding for another one when the right one pops up.

Thats the beauty of the this hobby; everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

Sincerely, fake autograph collector

I have collected about everything baseball at one time. I still have them someplace. Years ago I picked up a few fake autos from different infamous forgers in the hobby on the cheap. I used them as cool cheap display pieces.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by bleeckerstreetcards

Why would anyone buy a PSA 8/9 prewar card that has arguably higher risk of being trimmed / altered? Theres risk in every high value card purchase, and this scheme mentions nothing of older guys.

To your question on Ruth, there is a headin home signed Ruth, and multiple exhibits from the 20s. The “rookies” have a tiny population compared to Goudeys and in most cases were not marketed to kids the way his later issues were, so again simple answer… higher supply in the hands of more kids led to higher chance of those cards being brought to Ruth for signing. Not to mention in his rookie era he was not swarmed for autograph requests the way he would be in the 1930s.

The extrapolation of forged Aaron Judge and Kobe Bryant signatures on modern 8x10 photos and framed jerseys then meaning the most valuable, highly scrutinized, low pop signed vintage cards should be questioned is a leap in judgment I do not understand.

The risk in this guys modern autographs were known about by industry autograph experts for years, if you are tracking what those closest to it are saying. And the marks for this ring were largely the unsuspecting mom or dad buying a gift or item for their son or mancave at a (suspicious to hobbyists) discount, that is how he drove high volume sales. Forging one autograph of Babe Ruth on a Goudey card and getting it past the entire industry is highly unlikely to be successful and simply not how we know criminal minds typically work.


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I sent this literal explanation via PM to someone mere minutes before you wrote yours. Eerie.

The highlighted portions are the most important takeaways for all the alarmists.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by bleeckerstreetcards

The extrapolation of forged Aaron Judge and Kobe Bryant signatures on modern 8x10 photos and framed jerseys then meaning the most valuable, highly scrutinized, low pop signed vintage cards should be questioned is a leap in judgment I do not understand.

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I agree very strongly with this statement. The people freaking out and screaming now and for the next several weeks that 'mostly all autographs are fake' or 'if it wasn't signed in front of me, it's probably a fake' are the EXACT same people that were never interested in collecting signed items to begin with and have been complaining about them for decades. If you don't feel comfortable with them, don't collect them.

Are there a lot of modern fake autographs in the hobby on many different surfaces? YES! Are there signed & slabbed vintage fake autographs in the hobby? Yes, probably, but a very tiny fraction compared to all the modern signed jerseys, helmets, balls, photos, etc. If you've studied a signature and done your homework on vintage players' autographs for decades like some of us, it's pretty easy to pick out the bad ones or at least get an uneasy feeling where red flags will instantly come up.

It sounds like the vast majority of the 'Expired Guy's' work was the modern signed sharpie or silver paint pen scribbled crap that I've never been interested in anyways. I'm personally not worried at all.

[Rhotchkiss]

Fact: Fraud exists in ALL aspects of collectibles (autos, cards, memorabilia), and not just limited to sports stuff.

Fact: Time and again frauds are exposed and nothing changes.

Fact: While I don’t know for sure, logic says/chances are
that some of my cards have been doctored, some of my autos forged, and/or some of my LOAs/slabs are wrong and/or have issues.

Fact: I know all this, yet I continue to collect/invest and have no intention of stopping.

Thems the facts as I see them (but doesn’t change the fact that this sucks balls).

Good riddance to the forger.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

What I don't understand is that the fellow implied that he was a computer hacking whiz as well as a master counterfeiter. Well why then didn't he have a fake ID or three set up for when he was on the verge of being exposed? With all the money he made, he could then have easily lived very comfortably in several places after disappearing, e.g. a luxury condo in a big city such as New York where nobody knows his neighbours and out-of-the-way seasonal resorts from Maine to Wisconsin to Alabama and Louisiana accustomed to tourists coming and going? Why did he choose to eat a bullet instead?

Hubris. He never thought he'd get caught.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bleeckerstreetcards

To your question on Ruth, there is a headin home signed Ruth, and multiple exhibits from the 20s. The “rookies” have a tiny population compared to Goudeys and in most cases were not marketed to kids the way his later issues were, so again simple answer… higher supply in the hands of more kids led to higher chance of those cards being brought to Ruth for signing. Not to mention in his rookie era he was not swarmed for autograph requests the way he would be in the 1930s.

I think these are some good points, thank you, I stand corrected.

Keep in mind, there was an arrest a few years ago of a criminal who forged many signed T206s — not players like Cobb, Mathewson or Cy Young; instead relatively obscure players. Like everything else in the hobby, signed material is also filled with numerous fakes, whether it’s Sal Bando or Babe Ruth.

It’s a risk no matter what your hobby interest is: graded cards, raw cards, memorabilia, game used, autographs. Where there’s money, there’s people out there trying to rob you of your money.

[bleeckerstreetcards]

youre right, no arguing with that. risk and fraud abound wherever there is money. and i recall learning about that one with SGC / JSA often being at the center of slabbing those T206s. way better to find era-specific / period autos or ones with some provenance wherever possible. despite the fraud risk, we try to stay educated, vigilant, and persist in the hunt for our cardboard in this silly + awesome hobby

[4815162342]

It makes sense that a skilled forger would avoid producing thousands of fake prewar signed cards with an autopen, given the limited availability of the cards, the high risk, and the certainty of close examination. Identical Ruth or Cobb signatures would quickly raise red flags.

But what happens when AI is used to create a more human-like autopen that slightly varies each signature?

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Well why then didn't he have a fake ID or three set up for when he was on the verge of being exposed? With all the money he made, he could then have easily lived very comfortably in several places after disappearing, e.g. a luxury condo in a big city such as New York where nobody knows his neighbours and out-of-the-way seasonal resorts from Maine to Wisconsin to Alabama and Louisiana accustomed to tourists coming and going?

It's called greed, Mr. Fox. They just keep on going and going until it's too late.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Fact: Time and again frauds are exposed and nothing changes.

The outcome this time was very different, Rhotch.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

The outcome this time was very different, Rhotch.]

Time will tell. I am not talking about the perp (who offed himself), I am talking about the “hobby”, Samosa. Scandal after scandal for many years and the hobby just moves forward, unfazed. This will be no different.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Scandal after scandal for many years and the hobby just moves forward, unfazed. This will be no different.

Yep.