Cap Anson Team Photo With Black Child

[Tomi]

Heard and read stories about how racist Cap Anson was while refusing to play against black ball players so running into this photo has me scratching my head a little. He is pictured in the center and to his right sitting on the floor is a black child. I know there were mascots sometimes pictured with the team but this child is dressed very nicely and not in any kind of team attire although holding a bat and cap. I would think Anson wouldn't even allow the child in the picture but he's there. Can anyone shed any light at the situation given his history toward black people.

[OhioLawyerF5]

The reality of history is often far more nuanced than we are led to believe in the present. Most of the time, people are far less evil, or far less good, than we think. They are just people.

[BioCRN]

The Cubs had a black mascot during this time period. His name was Clarence Duval. His life didn't go well.

[BioCRN]

Found a piece talking specifically about Duval and Anson...written by David Fleitz (SABR member, author)

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/corner/c042001d.shtml

"His autobiography, written in 1900, made no mention of Moses Walker, but related in gleeful detail how the team treated its "mascot", a black man named Clarence Duval whom Anson described as a "coon" and "a no-account n-----." Historian Bill James says that "they treated Duval exactly as one would treat a dog." Anson made no secret about his feelings about sharing a field with blacks, repeating the statement "Gentlemen don't play baseball with n-----s" to anyone who would listen. People listened to Cap Anson, the towering figure of baseball in the 1880s."

[Fred]

I still collect Anson, even though he was a racist. He's a part of baseball history. I'd bet that he was the product of a racist household. Should we cancel him??? So sick of cancel culture and woke.

That is a cool cabinet! Half the team are Chicago players. I wonder what the occasion was for the picture. Looks like a few HOFers.

Anybody want to try and put together a list of the players. Ward is two to the right of Anson. Looks like Pfeffer to the immediate left of Anson. Is that Baldwin behind Anson? Is that Williamson next to the mascot?

[judsonhamlin]

It looks like George Wright on the ground with the cricket bat.

[Knightlax5]

Originally Posted by Fred

I still collect Anson, even though he was a racist. He's a part of baseball history. I'd bet that he was the product of a racist household. Should we cancel him??? So sick of cancel culture and woke.

That is a cool cabinet! Half the team are Chicago players. I wonder what the occasion was for the picture. Looks like a few HOFers.

Anybody want to try and put together a list of the players. Ward is two to the right of Anson. Looks like Pfeffer to the immediate left of Anson. Is that Baldwin behind Anson? Is that Williamson next to the mascot?

I'm not sure about "cancelling" a guy who has been dead 103 years. However I think its fair to question if he didn't take his stance on not playing against black players if we would have gotten to Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston in the MLB. Great cabinet card

[Snapolit1]

Woke culture out of control. Can’t even treat a young black child like a dog anymore.

[BioCRN]

On another board I wrote about my own Cap Anson in my Cubs collection. He's not a big mystery to many here, but opinions vary on the dude and how one might want to weigh the human being and the stats the human being produced playing baseball.

----

Cap Anson is one of the all-time best players of the Cubs-linage teams. Based on longevity with the team and the numbers he put up while playing for the team, he had few (arguably no) peers.

22 seasons, 3012 hits, 527 doubles, 1880 RBIs, .331/.396/.448 slash line...19 years as a player/manager

He is not in the Cubs team HOF (a somewhat recent creation) because his legacy of institutionalizing racism in the overall game had more of an impact than his superstar-level production.

Saying stuff like "it was a different time" cheapens the work and anti-racism efforts of people of all color during the time he lived. His story is even more damning because he wasn't just racist, he used his power to make racism institutionalized into the game no matter what other teams wanted to do.

If anyone is interested in specifics, there are many and easily found via a web search. None of his actions were singular or transactional to a specific moment.

Why is he in my collection? He's statistically a Cubs legend, a baseball legend, and a shaper of the game's early professional years. My collection involves the good and bad of the game. I'm not ignoring his history, nor do I need the card as a "reminder" of his history. I accept my collection for what it is, a collection of Cubs players that were important or notable to the team. I share the history the players created, and I don't gloss over reality to make them more palatable.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Standing third from left is Bob Pettit.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

Found a piece talking specifically about Duval and Anson...written by David Fleitz (SABR member, author)

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/corner/c042001d.shtml

"His autobiography, written in 1900, made no mention of Moses Walker, but related in gleeful detail how the team treated its "mascot", a black man named Clarence Duval whom Anson described as a "coon" and "a no-account n-----." Historian Bill James says that "they treated Duval exactly as one would treat a dog." Anson made no secret about his feelings about sharing a field with blacks, repeating the statement "Gentlemen don't play baseball with n-----s" to anyone who would listen. People listened to Cap Anson, the towering figure of baseball in the 1880s."

Sad story, but I did get an unexpected chuckle from the (unintentional?) pun at the end:

Anson's White Stockings became known as the Colts and then the Cubs, the name they bear today.

[bgar3]

Wright taught cricket on trip.

[calvindog]

Love this cabinet card.

[ruth-gehrig]

Guy standing behind boy protesting? He's turned 90 degrees and not facing camera

[judsonhamlin]

Indeed. Australian photographer (Sydney address)

Originally Posted by bgar3

Wright taught cricket on trip.

[molenick]

This photo is reproduced on page 261 of Athletic Sports in America, England and Australia (1889) which has a large section on the 1888-89 World Tour. The photo is captioned as "The Big, Fine-Looking Fellows of Our Party (Photographed at Melbourne)". Unfortunately, there are no specific player IDs for the photo, but all the people mentioned so far are in the text of the book as being on the tour. I know there was a more recent book written about the tour and that may have some IDs (if I can find the book).

[molenick]

From Spalding's World Tour: The Epic Adventure That Took Baseball Around the Globe--And Made it America's Game (2006) by Mark Lamster.

Note that Lamster says the photo was taken in Sydney (as per the studio address and not as per the caption in Athletic Sports).

Amazing cabinet!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by molenick

From Spalding's World Tour: The Epic Adventure That Took Baseball Around the Globe--And Made it America's Game (2006) by Mark Lamster.

Note that Lamster says the photo was taken in Sydney (as per the studio address and not as per the caption in Athletic Sports).

Amazing cabinet!

Thank you for the picture and names of players.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Fred

Thank you for the picture and names of players.

+1 It makes sense that it was from an international tour. I was trying to figure out what occasion would bring together these players in their uniforms, with some from the NL and a smaller number from the AA. I was guessing 88-89 with the one player in a KC uniform.

[molenick]

No problem...I am glad my shelves of print books still have some use.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by molenick

From Spalding's World Tour: The Epic Adventure That Took Baseball Around the Globe--And Made it America's Game (2006) by Mark Lamster.

Note that Lamster says the photo was taken in Sydney (as per the studio address and not as per the caption in Athletic Sports).

Amazing cabinet!

The tallest man in the back is Indianapolis' Egyptian Healy, the losingest pitcher of the 1880s but a 6'2" flamethrower who got the nickname being from Cairo, Illinois (although it's actually pronounced "KAY-ROW").

I submit my lone Old Judge of the poor fellow who died at 32 of TB.

[Jay Wolt]

Ya can't have enough posts about Egyptian Healy

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Ya can't have enough posts about Egyptian Healy

Absolutely, Jay!

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Woke culture out of control. Can’t even treat a young black child like a dog anymore.

I guess this is a really poor attempt at a joke?

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I guess this is a really poor attempt at a joke?

Humor is subjective. There are many who miss those good ole' days. I'm related to some.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I guess this is a really poor attempt at a joke?

I think it's actually a fair attempt at highlighting the absurdity of a post blaming "woke" culture for Cap Anson's reputation in the hobby.

I don't want to remove Anson from the Hall of Fame or scrub him from the history books. I do prefer to spend my limited hobby dollars on other players though. I collect cards and memorabilia for nostalgic good vibes, and I don't want Anson sharing my precious shelf space with Robinson and Mays.

I suppose that makes me woke. I also canceled Wander Franco from my collection, for what it's worth.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Tomi

I would think Anson wouldn't even allow the child in the picture but he's there. Can anyone shed any light at the situation given his history toward black people.

White racists are fine with having black and brown people around, as long as they are regarded as fundamentally inferior. It's those pesky things like equality that get them upset.

[molenick]

If anyone is interested in reading about the tour, the full text of Athletic Sports in America, England and Australia is available on https://books.google.com/ and selected sections of Spalding's World Tour are available as well.

[tycobb]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Woke culture out of control. Can’t even treat a young black child like a dog anymore.

Like school on Sunday .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[calvindog]

I'm an Anson collector (as well as Chase and Cobb). It's a slippery slope if you only collect cards of players who were without flaws, big and small. You can appreciate the player without appreciating his flaws. Here's Ned Williamson impersonating Anson in two of the rarest "Anson" cards that exist:

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I guess this is a really poor attempt at a joke?

Sorry, I think it's a pretty great joke.

Doug "some of my best friends are white" Goodman

[Mungo Hungo]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I guess this is a really poor attempt at a joke?

Personally I appreciate the joke. It's sad to see that people think using the word "woke" allows for any manner of racism or other acts, words, deeds, etc., to be excused. Of if "woke" doesn't do the trick, they might trot out "cancelled," even though no one here actually advocated for that.

Then there are others--hopefully the majority here--who are able to recognize that a player could be both great AND destructive. Some of us may even see that nuance is called for instead of retreating to right wing talking points.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mungo Hungo

Some of us may even see that nuance is called for instead of retreating to right wing talking points.

Or to left wing talking points...

Doug "some of my best friends aren't white" Goodman

[bk400]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Or to left wing talking points...

Doug "some of my best friends aren't white" Goodman

Well played, sir. LOL.

I'm with others here in that I'd collect a guy like Cap Anson because of his historical significance. In fact, he pairs well with Jackie Robinson in a collection because of the dichotomy.

But I do also think about how my children would view me if my showcase collection were all Cap Ansons and Ty Cobbs. I would much prefer that if I drop dead suddenly that they find a whole bunch of Hank Aarons.

[bandrus1]

Originally Posted by bk400

Well played, sir. LOL.

I'm with others here in that I'd collect a guy like Cap Anson because of his historical significance. In fact, he pairs well with Jackie Robinson in a collection because of the dichotomy.

But I do also think about how my children would view me if my showcase collection were all Cap Ansons and Ty Cobbs. I would much prefer that if I drop dead suddenly that they find a whole bunch of Hank Aarons.

Isn't kinda accepted fact the ty Cobb racism claims were all made up by one biographer

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by bandrus1

Isn't kinda accepted fact the ty Cobb racism claims were all made up by one biographer

Cobb was probably an "average" racist for his time, but not a notable one, nor as notorious as some stories have made him out to be.

You can find incidents of racism attributed to him, but more than that you find incidents of him being a short tempered jerk to everyone.

While it's unacceptable, there's a big difference in the game's players where a guy like Cobb may be racist, but he didn't use his stature in the game to integrate it as part of the game like Anson did.

In the same respect, that's why Anson's racist teammate Jimmy Ryan is in the Cubs team HOF, but Anson isn't.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bandrus1

Isn't kinda accepted fact the ty Cobb racism claims were all made up by one biographer

I was thinking the same thing. Take away Al Stump and we'd all remember Cobb as a guy who was born and grew up in the deep south, but who rose above racism and openly admired players like Willie Mays. Same with Speaker, who was Cobb's good friend, also from the deep south, mentoring Larry Doby when he helped crash the color barrier in the American League.

When you look objectively where Cobb and Speaker started out, and where they ended up, they were fine examples of southerners defeating racism. Cobb was often difficult to deal with - as some of his relatives attested - but he was a far better man than many people realize, in my opinion.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I was thinking the same thing. Take away Al Stump and we'd all remember Cobb as a guy who was born and grew up in the deep south, but who rose above racism and openly admired players like Willie Mays. Same with Speaker, who was Cobb's good friend, also from the deep south, mentoring Larry Doby when he helped crash the color barrier in the American League.

When you look objectively where Cobb and Speaker started out, and where they ended up, they were fine examples of southerners defeating racism. Cobb was often difficult to deal with - as some of his relatives attested - but he was a far better man than many people realize, in my opinion.

+1 Cobb also funded a foundation in 1956 with $100,000 donation ($1,100,000 in todays dollars) to build the first hospital in Royston and another educational foundation to send low income kids to college, both of which are still running today.
-

[The Detroit Collector]

If Anson played for Detroit, I would collect him. I understand the reasons why people dont collect him.

To me, it's part of history. Yes, a dark terrible part of history.
Many presidents (famous presidents) are also in that boat.

I think if you collect for the history of the sport or collect for the of the history of this country, it's not a topic that can be ignored.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by The Detroit Collector

If Anson played for Detroit, I would collect him. I understand the reasons why people dont collect him.

To me, it's part of history. Yes, a dark terrible part of history.
Many presidents (famous presidents) are also in that boat.

I think if you collect for the history of the sport or collect for the of the history of this country, it's not a topic that can be ignored.

That raises a fair point... I'd probably collect him if he played for the Red Sox. Because he didn't, I'd only collect him if I had unlimited resources and could afford to collect in tiers. I suppose I wouldn't blacklist him per se... he's just below a few dozen players that I'd rather admire on the shelf.

As a student of baseball history, warts and all, I'd definitely rather have the photo in the OP than, say, an N28 card of Anson.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Guy standing behind boy protesting? He's turned 90 degrees and not facing camera

Yeah, I see what you mean. He's the jerk that's got me steamed. I'd take my .44 Magnum and blow his head clean off....

Have a peaceful, pleasant day looking at your cards and photos, et al that bring you joy. ---- Brian Powell

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Yeah, I see what you mean. He's the jerk that's got me steamed. I'd take my .44 Magnum and blow his head clean off....

Have a peaceful, pleasant day looking at your cards and photos, et al that bring you joy. ---- Brian Powell

Well that escalated quickly.

[BioCRN]

Since we've brought up the guy standing sideways, Ned Williamson, the mascot that came on board after Duval was Willie Hahn and there's a N172 with Williamson + Hahn.

Hahn did pre-game "march the team out" duties similar to Duval's role, he was Williamson's personal batboy, and his father's shop was located near the ballpark.

Fwiw, Ned Williamson wrote of feeling pity for how badly Duval was treated while Duval was with the club in his 1900-ish autobiography.

[Beercan collector]

Looking at molenick’s post - I believe Ned Williamson is the heavyset fella sitting next to Duval. Tom Burns would be the player turned sideways, the first of 11 in the top row.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Looking at molenick’s post - I believe Ned Williamson is the heavyset fella sitting next to Duval. Tom Burns would be the player turned sideways, the first of 11 in the top row.

Correct. Thanks and my bad.

I get my out-of-card-context mustached dudes from the 1800s mixed up occasionally.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Well that escalated quickly.

lolol

This whole thing regarding Anson is very complex. As a man of color, I totally understand if people are offended by him and don't want him in their collections. At the same time, if people want to collect him - for his accomplishments or for investment or historical purposes - then I totally get that as well. For example, if I found a Nazi helmet used during the war, then I wouldn't throw it in the trash. I would show it to my daughter and her friends, and explain to them what happened. Millions of young people died trying to stop the Germans and we can't just erase all of that, right? They didn't die for nothing.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

This whole thing regarding Anson is very complex. As a man of color, I totally understand if people are offended by him and don't want him in their collections. At the same time, if people want to collect him - for his accomplishments or for investment or historical purposes - then I totally get that as well.

I think that's how most people view it.

"Hard pass on Anson, guy was a hardcore racist." isn't the foaming at the mouth, full screaming, blood vessel bursting rejection some want to make it out to be. It's not a hard logical leap that requires deep thought.

He's in my collection because I have a 1800-current Cubs collection and you can't tell the story of the Cubs team lineage in cards without one.

It's rather easy to say "Yeah, dude was a total dickhead. You would probably enjoy Jackie Robinson's career for other reasons than it's most popular aspect if it wasn't for Anson."

I don't feel obligated to share the person he was with others while showing off the card as some kind of moral hedge...I find it as easy as sharing anyone else's major impact on the game. Dude sucked.

[Mark17]

If collecting is supposed to make one happy, then everyone has their various emotional reactions that guide the way they build their collections. For instance, my T206 number is 1. It's a nice black hat throwing Hal Chase, one of the most chronically crooked players of the deadball era. I would love to own a GU jersey or bat of Denny McLain, despite the fact he was one of the most morally defective players of his era. And likewise I'd love to have a GU jersey of Jack Tatum or George Atkinson of the Raiders defensive backfield, when playing dirty was their well cultivated and deserved reputation.

But I wouldn't touch anything having to do with OJ Simpson. It would make me disgusted every time I looked at, or even thought about it.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by bandrus1

Isn't kinda accepted fact the ty Cobb racism claims were all made up by one biographer

Yeah, Al Stump basically smeared Cobb. I know Cobb had is demons, but he was not much a racist towards African Americans.

From an article entitled "Removing the Fangs from Ty Cobbs Notoriety":
'Four years of research found that Cobb’s father, a teacher and state senator in northeast Georgia, detested the mores of the Jim Crow South and once stopped a lynch mob. Some of Cobb’s family members turned out to be abolitionists. And Cobb attended Negro league games after his retirement and supported integration in baseball.'

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/01/s...notoriety.html

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Similar to Nazi, "Black Americana," and even Klan memorabilia there's a big difference in collecting Anson despite his racism and collecting him BECAUSE of his racism.