1965 Topps Series 6 semi-high Sheet Reconstruction

[Kevvyg1026]

This miscut of Law appears to have a wavy right edge, so I suspect he is a RE card.

1965_515_Law_wavy.jpg

[deweyinthehall]

Well there you go then!

So RE seems to be:

Law 4x
Dodgers Rookies 4x
Braves Rookies 3/4
Javier 3/4
Berra 3x
Mets Rookies 3x
Checklist 7 3x

Based on the counts I have I'd say its still a toss up as to whether Javier and Niekro are 3x or 4x - one has to be each.

With Berra in the RE, this gives us Banks and Boyer in column 10 and Freese in column 9.

Does this all make sense?

[Cliff Bowman]

I don't think Berra is a RE card. Banks has Berra to his right and Clete Boyer above him. Boyer has Pavletich to his right, so that means Pavletich is above Berra. If Berra is a RE then Pavletich would also have to be a RE. Either that Berra was crudely cut from a sheet or is a bizarre cut flaw, the left side is very uneven too.

[deweyinthehall]

Well, crap...sure enough it is.

If Berra, with the wavy cut, is clearly not an edge card, how reliable are our placements of Javier, Law, and Mets Rookies?

[Cliff Bowman]

Ugh, another one of these pops up but we already know the combo, Gene Freese to the left of Ernie Banks.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevin found this one, I believe it has to be Jose Azcue above Joe Christopher, I don't know which other card in the series it can be.

[deweyinthehall]

Found this on eBay. Javier has an Indian or Phillie to his left. His counts put him in the "too early to tell" category as to whether he's a 3x or 4x for me. This image doesn't help clear things up because there are possible mates that are clearly 3x and others that are clearly 4x.

Are we still going with him as a RE after the Berra incident?

The reverse of the Javier image just has a razor thin white line that doesn't tell us anything.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Found this on eBay. Javier has an Indian or Phillie to his left. His counts put him in the "too early to tell" category as to whether he's a 3x or 4x for me. This image doesn't help clear things up because there are possible mates that are clearly 3x and others that are clearly 4x.

Are we still going with him as a RE after the Berra incident?

The reverse of the Javier image just has a razor thin white line that doesn't tell us anything.

Javier is a confirmed RE card because there is a wrong back of him with Eddie Mathews on the reverse, and Mathews is a header card.

[Cliff Bowman]

Probably the biggest problem with trying to solve this series is the card design itself for the year, 1965. Unlike 1966 and 1967 when you could figure out from the sliver of a miscut card if it is a Rookie Stars card or a team card next to it, you can’t with 1965. It’s going to be very difficult to finish this series.

[Kevvyg1026]

I haven't seen or heard of that wrong back of Javier/Mathews. Do you have a scan?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I haven't seen or heard of that wrong back of Javier/Mathews. Do you have a scan?

Hmm, you're right that it never was posted on this thread. It's been a while but it was listed on eBay with a hefty price but it's long gone, I can't find a trace of it now. Luckily I saved pics of of the front and the back from the listing.

[Kevvyg1026]

I presume that is Will's under Mathews? I wish there's a wrong back then of the matching card for Wills

[deweyinthehall]

On the wrong back, does this mean that Javier is at the other end of the same row as Mathews, or does it mean he definitely isn't in Mathews' row?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

On the wrong back, does this mean that Javier is at the other end of the same row as Mathews, or does it mean he definitely isn't in Mathews' row?

The back of the 264 super sheet was printed upside down from the front, that means the column 11 card Javier has the back of the column 1 card Mathews, the same as the column 11 card Braves Rookie Stars having the back of the column 1 card Elston Howard.

[Kevvyg1026]

The wrong back means that if Mathews was in row 1 of one slit, then Javier would be in row 12 of the other slit. Similarly, if Mathews was in row 2, then Javier would be in row 11 of the other slit (row 3 matches row 10, row 4 matches with row 9, etc.)

It's not impossible, but highly unlikely, that Mathews and Javier are in the same row just like Howard and Niekro are probably not in the same row.

In other words, it would require a very strange row pattern in the two slits for these wrong backs to be in the same row.

[deweyinthehall]

Well this is disappointing - Baseball Card Emporium just dropped several hundred cards from this series, and none seem to be able to help - I looked over any that appeared to have potential by the front image. I may go back and examine all the reverses in the coming days.

But, MAN....there must be in the neighborhood of 500 samples in there and nothing stands out.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...0&_pgn=5&rt=nc

[Kevvyg1026]

At least the nomenclature, "hand-cut", that they applied appears to confirm our header card (left-edge) suspicions for several cards

[deweyinthehall]

Joel Horlen is above Stu Miller on at least one of the slits...

[Kevvyg1026]

A miscut of Owens shows a similar mark, so Horlen may above both Owens and Miller somewhere on the two slits.

And there is a miscut of Priddy that looks like Owens is below Priddy.

Strange row pattern!!

[Kevvyg1026]

This is definitely a very frustrating series to attempt a reconstruction for the reasons that Cliff has already pointed out. Obviously, the individual card placements require a lot of miscuts, and there is really a dearth of those. But even the row patterns for the two slits are difficult to fathom.

For example, we know the 7 header (left edge) cards. These are: Owens, Horlen, Howard, Mathews, Priddy, Miller, and Wills. The miscuts found so far suggest:
a. Horlen is above Owens
b. Horlen is above Miller
c. Howard is above Horlen
d. Priddy is above Owens
e. Owens is above Mathews
f. Mathews is above Wills
g. A red card is above Owens (Note: I suspect that this might simply be a color shift of Priddy).

So there are at least two row changes in the slit patterns.

We are certain that two of the three cards printed 4x cards across the two slits are Horlen & Owens, but the third one is TBD. Could it be Priddy? Howard?

We also know that the four of the 7 trail end (last column) cards are: Dodgers RS (4x), Braves RS (Niekro), Javier, and checklist 7 (small print), and strongly suspect that the other 3 are: Law, Giants RS, Mets RS.

Normally, the checklists are somewhat easy to place because they usually have some unusual features, but in this series, we have not been able to determine adjacent cards to the checklists and therefore, we can't even assign the trail cards to their appropriate header cards.

I hate to give up (yes, I probably am), but unless additional miscuts turn up, or some uncut or wrong back material appears, the printing pattern for this series may be lost to posterity.

[deweyinthehall]

This is maddening - one more millimeter would do it.

But, no way to tell which Pirate or Yankee is in the same column as Aguirre...

[Kevvyg1026]

It would be nice (helpful?, lucky?) if it was Mota because then the red card to the right of Howard would be Aguirre. But, I had recorded that the Indians RS was left of Aguirre (can't find that definitive miscut, unfortunately), so, if true, then the card below Aguirre can't be be Mota.

Freese may have a black border card above him at one point, but there is a row change above the Freese-Banks row, so Freese can't be ruled out.

And unfortunately, we know little about the cards surrounding Wood, Law, or Cardwell.

So, this series continues to tanatalize, flummox, confound, and p*** me off.

[Cliff Bowman]

It’s not Law, his baseball is very close to the bio box as can be seen at the top of this page. It can’t be Elston Howard either, so that leaves Clete Boyer, Cardwell, Freese, Mota, and Wood.

[deweyinthehall]

Found this Berra on eBay today - settles the question of whether he's a right edge card or not - looks like an Indian or Phillie to his right.

I ran through all Indians and Phillies, and the only ones that can't be ruled out because of the 3x/4x thing (Berra being a 3x) or already being to the right of another card are Culp, Brown, Indians Team and Phillies Rookie.

Because of the slight tilt, I think the likeliest candidates are Culp and the Phillies Rookies - I think the team name on the Indians card and the headdress on Browns would show slightly.

Thoughts?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Found this Berra on eBay today - settles the question of whether he's a right edge card or not - looks like an Indian or Phillie to his right.

I ran through all Indians and Phillies, and the only ones that can't be ruled out because of the 3x/4x thing (Berra being a 3x) or already being to the right of another card are Culp, Brown, Indians Team and Phillies Rookie.

Because of the slight tilt, I think the likeliest candidates are Culp and the Phillies Rookies - I think the team name on the Indians card and the headdress on Browns would show slightly.

Thoughts?

Nice find, it can’t be Culp, he has an Indian/Red to his left from a miscut in post #36. ETA I think Richie Allen is still possible.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Nice find, it can’t be Culp, he has an Indian/Red to his left from a miscut in post #36. ETA I think Richie Allen is still possible.

Right you are about Culp.

I don't think it can be Allen - somebody check my math, but post 24 has Gagliano over Allen, and in some posts in the high 60s, it seems Gagliano is place next to Owens in the left edge. If this is accurate, then placing Allen next to Berra would be impossible as it would make Berra a LE card which we know he can't be.

With Culp eliminated, I think the best bet is the Phillies Rookies, but I'm not certain enough to lock it in on my grid.