O/T 2026 HOF Contemporary Ballot

[ceast]

Dale Murphy was my childhood idol. I got to see him play in ATL several times in the late 70s-80s. Even though I am a lefty and my forte was pitching rather than hitting, I perfected the little bat waggle he did at the plate. He didn’t smoke, cuss, drink or chew tobacco. An absolutely awesome role model for kids.

As an adult, I got to meet and interact with him twice in the last 20 years at functions. And he absolutely validated my childhood adoration of him. He signed autos for everyone, took pics with everyone, and regaled us with stories and answered all of our questions (except he never would say which pitchers he liked to face because he didn’t want to come across as badmouthing them).

As a player he was one of the top players in the decade of the 80s. But when his career statistics are compared to the current HOFers and to those who are currently on the outside looking in, his peak was short, and his falloff at the end was steep and fast (he certainly would have benefitted from even light PEDs to help injury recovery to prolong his career by a couple of years).

He is absolutely a HOFer in my eyes, but I can understand why he is unlikely to get in based on the numbers. Based solely on the numbers he should rank somewhere between 4th and 7th on this ballot. But if the voters are going to discount the on field performances of the PED folks on the ballot because of PEDs, then they should in theory credit Murph for his off-field contributions to the image of the league, and he was definitely on the of the faces of the league for much of the 80s.

Again, based on the numbers, I don’t see him getting in. But if he does, this 1970s-1980s kid will be at Cooperatown wearing a #3 Braves jersey watching his induction speech and reliving my childhood all over again. If he doesn’t get the votes, he will always be a Hall of Famer to me. Now I’m off to go grab my autographed Dale Murphy bat and hope I don’t wake up my wife as I take some practice swings.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I think most everybody who grew up in our era wouldn't have a bad thing to say of Murphy and Mattingly (and my favorite, Dwight Evans). They were absolutely wonderful role models and have continued on this path as time has moved on.

From a personal standpoint, I wouldn't be as "offended" to see Dale or Don inducted as I would some other almost-deserving candidates, but they unfortunately fall short. I think Mattingly stands a better overall chance of getting in vs. Murphy. He's a lifer and still in the game.

I really think that Dwight Evans is more deserving than the other two. He was more consistent over his entire career. He was not a "loud" player, constantly overshadowed by teammates. I think that this is why he is so often overlooked; almost a footnote.

To echo others on here, where on earth is Whitaker (and Evans) on this ballot? It's rather pathetic that the two most deserving candidates didn't make the list. Are they to be relegated to some other kind of list? I don't understand.

At least Bobby Grich wasn't mentioned that I could see. Tell me something: before all this talk of his possible induction, when was the last time you even thought of Bobby Grich or heard his name? It was mentioned earlier in this thread that, had things like WAR been important in his era, Steve Garvey would have obviously adjusted his type of play to reflect that. Is Grich perhaps not the opposite of this? His numbers look great by modern metrics, but I have no recollection of anybody extolling his virtues when he was active. Maybe he received more regional praise than national and I simply missed out due to location, or that his best seasons were already behind him before I came along. My question is this: if a player's numbers suddenly look phenomenal using modern metrics, should that really even matter? If he was so incredible, why was he so forgettable for the past 40 years? Perhaps one could postulate that Grich's numbers, reflective of stats that weren't even taken into consideration when he played, make him appear ahead of his time, but is that not almost meaningless? I'm assuredly showing some of my ignorance by asking these questions, so perhaps some people may be able to help educate me on this.

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

At least Bobby Grich wasn't mentioned that I could see. Tell me something: before all this talk of his possible induction, when was the last time you even thought of Bobby Grich or heard his name?

Bobby Grich and Rick Reuschel are the "What, really?" of WAR stats...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I have no recollection of anybody extolling his virtues when he was active. Maybe he received more regional praise than national and I simply missed out due to location, or that his best seasons were already behind him before I came along.

6 all-star appearances, 4 gold gloves and he even won a silver slugger despite the award not starting until he was a 10 year veteran. I suspect if he had played for a big market team, or even just stayed in Baltimore for his whole career, he'd have a lot bigger impact on people's psyches. Though WAR doesn't love Al Oliver I always thought that if he had been a career Pirate, with an additional WS he would've had a much better chance at getting elected. (and he's still better than Harold freakin' Baines, but then again so is EVERYONE being discussed.

[packs]

I hope Posada is voted on in this category in the future. His one and done appearance always bothered me. Other than Piazza and Pudge who people have whispered about there wasn’t a better offensive catcher in his era.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

6 all-star appearances, 4 gold gloves and he even won a silver slugger despite the award not starting until he was a 10 year veteran. I suspect if he had played for a big market team, or even just stayed in Baltimore for his whole career, he'd have a lot bigger impact on people's psyches. Though WAR doesn't love Al Oliver I always thought that if he had been a career Pirate, with an additional WS he would've had a much better chance at getting elected. (and he's still better than Harold freakin' Baines, but then again so is EVERYONE being discussed.

Certainly. And I wasn't trying to belittle Grich; it just felt that all this talk of him and Cooperstown came out of nowhere and due to all the (fairly) newfound love for WAR. Insofar as people wanting to see a player inducted, Evans has always had his small camp which has gained some footing at times; it seems to me that Whitaker's boosters are perhaps more recent in being louder in their hopes.

Not for the sake of any argument whatsoever, but only because I am interested in seeing how Grich compares to Whitaker and Evans with the career highlights you mentioned:

All Star Appearances:

Grich 6
Whitaker 5
Evans 3

Gold Gloves:

Grich 4
Whitaker 3
Evans 8

Silver Slugger:

Grich 1
Whitaker 4
Evans 2

Keeping in mind that Evans also had many seasons under his belt before the Silver Slugger award came about.

We can take Evans out of the discussion completely if we'd rather just deal with second basemen. However you want to do it, everyone is all over the place! The All Star aspect is just a popularity contest, so does it really matter as much as the awards?

[alaskapaul3]

Neither were even close to Schmidt who completely overshadowed them, but both over 300 HR and 6x AS and 3B are underrepresented in the HOF.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by alaskapaul3

What about Graig Nettles and The Penguin?

Neither were even close to Schmidt who completely overshadowed them, but both over 300 HR and 6x AS and 3B are underrepresented in the HOF.

I think you can throw Buddy Bell and Ken Boyer in with those guys to.

I think unfortunately they're all just a hair off for various reasons.

Nettles is the 12th (11th if you kick out Edgar Martinez who is lumped in with the 3rd Baseman) ranked 3B All-Time on Baseball Reference according to JAWS and WAR, which you think should be enough to get him in, but the lack of Awards and the .248 batting average will always drive voters crazy.

Buddy Bell has the Golden Gloves but lacks the power stats voters love at that position.

Cey profiles maybe slightly better then Nettles and Bell offensively, but nowhere in his or Bell's stratosphere, defensively.

Boyer has all the hardware including an MVP, but a relatively short prime.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Certainly. And I wasn't trying to belittle Grich; it just felt that all this talk of him and Cooperstown came out of nowhere and due to all the (fairly) newfound love for WAR. Insofar as people wanting to see a player inducted, Evans has always had his small camp which has gained some footing at times; it seems to me that Whitaker's boosters are perhaps more recent in being louder in their hopes.

Not for the sake of any argument whatsoever, but only because I am interested in seeing how Grich compares to Whitaker and Evans with the career highlights you mentioned:

All Star Appearances:

Grich 6
Whitaker 5
Evans 3

Gold Gloves:

Grich 4
Whitaker 3
Evans 8

Silver Slugger:

Grich 1
Whitaker 4
Evans 2

Keeping in mind that Evans also had many seasons under his belt before the Silver Slugger award came about.

We can take Evans out of the discussion completely if we'd rather just deal with second basemen. However you want to do it, everyone is all over the place! The All Star aspect is just a popularity contest, so does it really matter as much as the awards?

I mean, I've got no problem with Evans or Whitaker and I'd rank both above Grich, if I were to put any of them in the HOF.

[BioCRN]

I just wanted to butt in again to further register my disappointment about Kenny Lofton not being on this ballot. Carry on.

[JollyElm]

Forgive me if this considered self-flagellation, but since Bobby Grich has come to the fore, I wanted to share my most Grichest experience from a show a little while back (screenshot from page two of my 'Observations from the Card Show Front Lines - UPDATED!!!' thread)...


grichsegmentfromObservations.jpg

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Certainly. And I wasn't trying to belittle Grich; it just felt that all this talk of him and Cooperstown came out of nowhere and due to all the (fairly) newfound love for WAR. Insofar as people wanting to see a player inducted, Evans has always had his small camp which has gained some footing at times; it seems to me that Whitaker's boosters are perhaps more recent in being louder in their hopes.

Not for the sake of any argument whatsoever, but only because I am interested in seeing how Grich compares to Whitaker and Evans with the career highlights you mentioned:

All Star Appearances:

Grich 6
Whitaker 5
Evans 3

Gold Gloves:

Grich 4
Whitaker 3
Evans 8

Silver Slugger:

Grich 1
Whitaker 4
Evans 2

Keeping in mind that Evans also had many seasons under his belt before the Silver Slugger award came about.

We can take Evans out of the discussion completely if we'd rather just deal with second basemen. However you want to do it, everyone is all over the place! The All Star aspect is just a popularity contest, so does it really matter as much as the awards?

I am all about Dewey. It drives me nuts that the Red Sox 3rd best outfielder of the era is in the HOF.

Actually I am on board with all three of these guys.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

At least Bobby Grich wasn't mentioned that I could see. Tell me something: before all this talk of his possible induction, when was the last time you even thought of Bobby Grich or heard his name? It was mentioned earlier in this thread that, had things like WAR been important in his era, Steve Garvey would have obviously adjusted his type of play to reflect that. Is Grich perhaps not the opposite of this? His numbers look great by modern metrics, but I have no recollection of anybody extolling his virtues when he was active. Maybe he received more regional praise than national and I simply missed out due to location, or that his best seasons were already behind him before I came along. My question is this: if a player's numbers suddenly look phenomenal using modern metrics, should that really even matter? If he was so incredible, why was he so forgettable for the past 40 years? Perhaps one could postulate that Grich's numbers, reflective of stats that weren't even taken into consideration when he played, make him appear ahead of his time, but is that not almost meaningless? I'm assuredly showing some of my ignorance by asking these questions, so perhaps some people may be able to help educate me on this.

I just read a quote from Don Baylor, who was a very smart baseball man, who won the MVP in 1979 based almost entirely on traditional stats. He thought his teammate Grich should have been considered for the award over him. Now in full hindsight, Brett or Fred Lynn probably should have won the award, but Baylor obviously saw something in Grich with his own eye test, that traditional statistics did not.

I also maintain baseball people back then weren't as ignorant about player value as we thought they were...even if they didn't have a handy statistic to pin it on.

I think the general public has become more informed of player value through statistics like WAR and defensive metrics, but inside baseball people always knew players like Mark Belanger, Brian Downing, Bobby Grich and other players like them, were very valuable to have on your team, even if the back of their baseball card didn't make them seem like a superstar.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

...baseball people back then weren't as ignorant about player value as we thought they were...even if they didn't have a handy statistic to pin it on...

Perfectly stated.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I just read a quote from Don Baylor, who was a very smart baseball man, who won the MVP in 1979 based almost entirely on traditional stats. He thought his teammate Grich should have been considered for the award over him. Now in full hindsight, Brett or Fred Lynn probably should have won the award, but Baylor obviously saw something in Grich with his own eye test, that traditional statistics did not.

I also maintain baseball people back then weren't as ignorant about player value as we thought they were...even if they didn't have a handy statistic to pin it on.

I think the general public has become more informed of player value through statistics like WAR and defensive metrics, but inside baseball people always knew players like Mark Belanger, Brian Downing, Bobby Grich and other players like them, were very valuable to have on your team, even if the back of their baseball card didn't make them seem like a superstar.

Great points, and well taken.

When you consider players who may not have seemed like great stars, yet spent most/all of their careers with the same team, it's always cause to wonder why and look more deeply into it if the answer may not be readily apparent. You picked such a good example in Belanger. Then, I start thinking of Frankie Crosetti and wondering about him. A pretty decent player, but always among absolute greats. Clearly, he had a wonderful baseball IQ which served him for many decades to come. That must be a big part of his "why". My old friend Mel Harder isn't someone who you have to wonder about the reasons why. Bobby Richardson would be another.