OJ ? about color/tone

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Posted By: craig

new to collecting old judges, i've only been collecting them for about 8 months, i have seen many cards with descriptions that mention they have different color tones ie pink. can any of you more experienced collectors give me a little info on these. do some of the cards only have these color tones and not the regular sepia-tones version. i am totally in the dark about these and would love to learn more.

thanks
craig

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Posted By: brian p

Sorry, no help from me on this issue. This is where a search engine on this board and/or David Rudd would sure come in handy.

Brian

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Posted By: Anonymous

The only "tones" you will see with OJs are pink. I have seena few that have a purplish look to them, but those are very few and far between.

Jay

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Posted By: craig

so is there a premium for these pink ones?

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Posted By: Jay Miller

There are alot of minor shade differences in Old Judge cards--the normal sepia coloration can vary all the way to grayish black in some cases. There are also some 1889/1890 cards which show pink tones (and in some rare instances purple tones). These are typically less desireable if they are accompanied with light photos, which is often the case. Interestingly, the few examples I have seen with purple tones have had very sharp photos and looked very nice. In those cases there should be no devaluation.

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Posted By: Rich Jacobs

Jay:

Barry Sloate's current auction lists three Old Judges with a pink tone, and describes them as having an "intentional pink hue."

What's the evidence that Goodwin did some of the 1889's with an intentional pink tone?

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Rich--I think Sloate's statements probably find their roots in what Hankron said on this board several weeks ago. I know of no source which verifies Goodwin & Co. experimenting with pink tones in its photographs, but then again there is no real data concerning anything that Goodwin did. David is much more familiar with this area than I am and I would trust his opinion on this type of issue.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I actually posted a thread on this forum about this very same topic not long ago. I was curious as to why some vintage card sellers would attach a premium to pink toned N172's, when it was common knowledge for many around the hobby that the pink toning was the result of the photograph deteriorating over time. Lew Lipset had originally indicated in his encyclopedia that poor photo quality was commonplace among 1890 cards. As a result, It's not unusual to find 1889-1890 N172's that are pink, faded or out of focus. In fact, just about every pink N172 that I have owned or seen is either faded or out of focus. I also believe (and Jay Miller please correct me on this if I'm wrong) that many of the known Player's League cards tend to have a pink tint and poor photo quality, as they were produced late in the N172 run. One of the origins of the pink deterioration, assuming that is what causes it, could be traced to fact that the photos themselves were produced a couple of generations after the originals, thus resulting in a substandard image and quality. Lew touched on this subject and I think Jay also did in one of his VCBC articles on Old Judges. Maybe it is possible that Goodwin experimented with dye, but as Jay pointed out there is no way to know for sure. It's my opinion that pink tinting is a condition problem for N172's and that pink tinting should be held to the same standard as other condition problems and that there should NOT be a premium attached to the card's value.

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Posted By: Barry Sloate

Since I described several of the Old Judges in my current auction as having "intentional pink tones" I thought I'd add my three cents. It was never satisfying to me that a sepia card would turn pink due to some flaw in the photo process. In chewing the fat with Jay Miller one day, he mentioned that David Rudd theorized the pink tones may have been experimental; we can never know for sure but it was so refreshing to hear a new theory that I thought I would go with it in my current catalog, partly to see how collectors would react. Fortunately, it has stimulated some discussion. Pink tones should not command a premium, especially if the photo quality is compromised. Lot #37 in my current auction is an N172 Pete Browning that while having a pink background exhibits good photo tones. As such, it is quite attractive. We won't know with certainty why this color variation occurred, but I was tickled pink by this new and original idea.

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Posted By: runscott

My understanding is that OJ's were NOT originally sepia-colored.

I'm guessing we can eventually entice David to comment, as I would bet my bottom ten dollar that he is lurking!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I've purchased a number of OJ's over the years from various sources. The few that I've gotten from people who took them directly from victorian scrapbooks (that were in good condition) are darn near black and white. I've got two like this. My guess is that these photos age to a golden brown unless they are kept from light and air.

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Posted By: Hankron

I figured I should post on this one, and clear it up.

Adam is correct. When they were originally made, the Old Judges-- and and any albumen photo card, like Four Base Hits, Gypsy Queens, etc-- were much closer to black and white. The original images often had some subtle purples or browns in the images. With age they turned to the common modern day sepia. Adam is also correct that you will occasionally find some well stored ones that are the original colors.

I am more than confident that any of the color ones (typcially pink, potentially other colors as well) were intentionally made that way. During this period, a photographer had invented a technique where colored dye could be added during the development of of the photograph. Chemically (photography is a chemical process), pink dye worked best (explaining the relative plentitude of the pink Old Judges), though other colors could be used. This is coupled with that, while detioration can cause different colors of fungus in paper, I can't imaging an Old Judge aging to a consistent pink tone ... How the pink tone effects the value is an issue for they buyers to answer, but the pink Old Judges should be considered intentional and factory made.

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Posted By: Hankron

I will add one point relating to desirability, as there have been legitimate issues concerning the image quality of the pink ones. Especially at the high prices (someone may want to buy a cheap and rough example for their type or large Old Judge collection, which of course is fine), when pricing a pink Old Judge, one should be keenly aware of the quality of the image. Any current or future premium in value due to the pink may be (or at least should be) more than reduced if the image is poor.

Due to rarity, there likely will be a substantial premium given to Old Judges with really unusual and vibrant colors (green, blue, yellow etc). Again, while the premium here will be larger, the potential buyer should still be conscious of the overall attractiveness, including the quality of the color.

In the end, Old Judges are little photographs and the image quality is always an essential part of a photograph's desirability and longterm financial value.