E107 Question

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Posted By: Paul

On another thread, it was mentioned that about 6 or 7 E107 Wagners are known. I've never heard that the Wagner is scarcer than any other card in the set, but let's say it's a little scarcer than average, so that maybe there's an average of 10 known for each card in the set.

With this extreme rarity, how is it that this set is so well documented? As far as I know, the checklist for this set hasn't changed for decades, except for the addition of a few variations of previously known players. It seems to me almost possible that in the early days of collecting, Jefferson Burdick or other pioneers could have confirmed the existence of almost 150 different cards, each of which is this rare.

Compare this to the N167 Old Judge set. It's probably safe to say only 5-10 of each exist. With only the players from one team in the set, it should have been much easier to confirm all the cards. But the Sports Collectors Bible (published in the 1980s) listed only two cards. The rest were confirmed later. How could so many more cards in the much larger E107 set have been confirmed so much sooner?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Paul,

I have no idea how the set could have been so well documented, but I can tell you from experience that the relative scarcity of the cards in the E107 set varies widely. If you just look at the HOFers, there are MANY more E107 Waddel's, Plank's, and McGinnity's than there are Wagner's. Mathewson is even more difficult to find than Wagner. Other than mine, I can only name 3 others: Chris from Boston again, Keith Olberman again, and Larry Fritsch. I think that Scott B may know of another.

Scott is actually the best person to answer this question, since he has been trying to put the set together for a while.

By the way, I also think there is a range of scarcity within the N167 Set. The Ewing wasn't even known at the time of Lipset's Encyclopedia for example. There are only 2 - 4 examples known of this card.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

I've always wanted to pick up a Hall of Famer as a type card from this set, and Joss would definitely be my first choice - any opinions on how tough his card is?

If he's tough I may have to settle for a Plank or Waddell as I have seen plenty of those - relatively speaking, of course.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Joss is about average - less scarce than Wagner or Mathewson, more scarce than Plank or Waddell. There have been a several Joss cards offered for sale in the past few years.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

The willingness of others on this board to share knowledge is what makes it a great place...

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Posted By: scott brockelman

the checklist has changed, i have discovered 2 additional team variations in the last 3 years, dahlen, new york and mcguire, new york. previously they were only know with brooklyn in the caption. other team changes may exist as well. also likely are 3 additional uncatlaogued players as there are only 147 of the 150 known as advertised on the backs.

back to your initial question as to cards extant, i would venture to say 10-20 might exist on average of any given player, this is a max number on my part, as some of the team variations are very rare, perhaps numbering less than 5 known of each, as many are missing from the checklist's of the 6 people that i track that are attempting to put this set together. WHICH, i might add has NEVER been completed by ANYONE!

also very likely that this issue was put out by different companies for advertising over a 2-3 year period based on team changes and font changes at the bottom. Breisch Williams may have only used the purple overprinted backs in their products, while other candy? companies may have used the blank backs and/or series of 150 backs. pure speculation on my part as i have studied the groups as i acquired them, i have went through over 350 e107's in the last 5-6 years, probably more than any other person has had a chance to examine.

as to the type 2's, no one really knows what they are, they are obviously on a darker gray and heavier stock, normally cut tight on the side borders but not always, as i have a doyle that is regular size. initially they were thought to be cut from advertising pieces, i doubt this now as i have a delehanty type 2 with the purple Breisch Williams back stamp. very unlikely that any ad peices were back stamped just like the cards. also a few more exist than the current guide has listed.

i would appreciate any input from others on their thoughts on any or all of the above.

AND, I STILL NEED A MATHEWSON, AS I SOLD THE ONLY 1 I HAD FOR A FEW FLEETING MOMENTS TO ANDY!!

scott

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Posted By: scott brockelman

here are 2 e107's type 1 & type 2, hopefully the scans will show a bit of the differences.

scott

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Posted By: Paul

Thanks Andy and Scott for the information. I still can't believe I passed up an opportunity to pick up a Type I Delahanty about 10 years ago. It had a light vertical crease. I believe I bid $500 and it sold for $550 in an auction that had nothing else very nice.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I can see now why Andy and Scott are so entranced with this great set!

Historical significance and extreme scarcity!!

Let me know when you come across and HOF rookie cards from the set that you guys don't need!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Where do they stand on the "difficult to find" scale?

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Posted By: scott brockelman

i would rate both in the middle category of difficulty, 1 or 2 of each player has been sold in the last 12 months, however, keep in mind many of these we are discussing are in lower grade F-G, e107's in VG or better are prohibitively scarce. the nicer commons and HOFers bring well above the book price.

as a side note to Hal, i do have some dupe HOFers but am ONLY interested in trading them for HOFers i need, Mathewson and Kelley.


scott

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I understand your desire to trade... but according to your "pop report", it doesn't sound like that opportunity could possibly ever arise.

The cards you want are SO scarce ... that NOBODY who collects these cards would EVER part with them.

Conversely, the only people who WOULD part with them are people who do NOT collect this set ... which means that they would have NO INTEREST in your trade offer.

The solution, however, is simple. I have some green-backed Ben Franklin rookie cards that were printed recently in Washington, DC. I trade you THESE for your "doubles"... and then you trade THESE Benjamins to whoever comes up with the cards for which you are seeking.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

hal,

i realize finding these may be nearly impossible, especially among people that collect the set, my best bet is a collector like yourself not doing the set but lucky enough to find 1 of the HOFers i need and willing to swap for 1 i might have that he or she would rather have.

on the other idea, the franklins are quite common even in nrmt condition. i have many of those to trade as well.

scott

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

What am I going to do with you guys?

So unwilling to help out a struggling beginning collector.

Any idea what the upcoming Mastro auction will have in the way of E107's??

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Posted By: Josh K.

If Hal is calling himself a beginner collector, what does that make the rest of us?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I don't know about the rest of you...

but Scott and Andy are card hogs who won't share!!

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Posted By: scott brockelman

you just have to come up with the right bait. until a recent sale of e107's, my dupes were the 7th largest collection known. i sold 2 different groups to very enthusiastic collectors such as ourselves. but i keep the really nice dupes for the right time and place. here's an example of trade bait for the right E107 matty.



forget any cash offers, it would approach a t206 wagner price.

scott

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

You are forgetting who sold you all of the current E107's in your collection. I still have the Type 2 Lajoie with your name on it as well. Just let me know.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

just seeing that Cy Young card gets my heart beating!!!

You guys have clearly cornered the market on these cards, so the rest of us will just have to wait for you guys to lose interest in baseball and sell off your Barry Halper-like collections!!

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Posted By: jay behrens

That Young is incredible. I'd much rather have that card than a t206 Wagner in similar condition. I've always liked e107s, but have never seen one in that nice of shape.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: John Spencer

Scott:
About 10 years ago, I sold my entire vintage card collection to Sportscards Plus to come up with a down payment on a house (now there is an inexcusable reason if I ever heard one). Included was a beautiful E107 Matty, at least ex+/exmt. I still bang my head against the wall when I think about it and Kevin Struss and I still talk about it when I see him. He might recall who he sold it to and if so, it might be worth an approach on your part. I did manage to pick up a Hof'er in a Mastro auction for my type collection, a Vic Willis SGC 50, but it just ain't the same!!

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Bumping this topic back to the front as I was wondering what people's opinions were about the scarcity of the individual type of backs. I know many people say the "150 Subjects" backs are more scarce than blank backs, but in my collecting experience, they seem about the same. I was also wondering if there was any information out there involving the scarcity of the overprint backs compared to the set as a whole....Does anyone have an overprint back they wouldn't mind scanning? I'd love to see what one looks like.

Another question I had was concerning the photographs or artwork of the cards....below are a couple cards I have of Carr and Thomas that look more like rough drawings/sketches than actual photos of the player. Any thoughts on this particular inconsistency in this set?



Any feedback or knowledge the board has is always appreciated! Thanks guys!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

1990 Fleer factory sets in the garage that I'll trade for these NRMT Franklins that Scott and Hal have so many of..........

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Once again, I will defer to Scott B if he chooses to respond. He has handled many more cards than I have. It is my experience that the 150 Backs are slightly more common than the blank backs (very small sample). Cards with the overprint back are exceedingly rare. I think Pete Calderone has a scan of an overprint back on his website. I don't own any overprint backs, and never have.

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Posted By: leon

Has one or some with the Breisch Williams overprints. They are single lined and purple. He has to work during the day but maybe he'll pop us a pic when he gets time.....later

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Posted By: petecld

Thanks for the plug Andy and yes, I do have a picture of a "150" E107 back on my site. For those interested, look at:

www.caramel-cards.com/e107.html

E107 backs:
- blank backs are the more common. If the term "common" can be used in regards to this set.
- 150 backs are a little harder to find over blank backs and I do stress "a little"
- overprinted backs are VERY rare



This is just my experience but for E107s, Scott B is the man to talk to.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

i would say that blank backs are a bit more common than the series of 150 backs, however i really never sat down and tracked them, but they seem to occur roughly 60/40 in favor of blank backs.

the overprinted backs are exceedingly rare, so much in fact one of the nearest to completion sets that exists only has 1 overprinted back. another of the larger holdings i have seen had about 15 overprints. in my set in progress i have 39 overprints an abnormally large amount. the few overprints that i have auctioned on ebay brought roughly double what a blank back or 150 back would bring, both were commons, a hofer with the overprint might go 3x's.

scott

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Posted By: MW

Scott,

How much for the Young?

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Thanks for your input, Scott and others. You guys are a big help as I learn more about this great set. Does anyone have a scan of an overprint back they wouldn't mind posting on the board?

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Posted By: scott brockelman

2 part post/answer:


MW-young not for sale, find me an e107 matty in similar grade and we can talk.

Brian McQueen- will post a scan of an overprint back tomorrow.

scott