One that got away

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Posted By: Anonymous

"With your attitude, I don't think it's too much of a fantasy to even imagine a 90-lb weakling standing over your prone body - he might be holding a chair and you might be looking the other way, but that's what happens to people like you."

And why would someone do that? Because I responded to a hypothetical question in a way they didn't like? Are you guys insecure I might steal your business at National?

It sounds to me like National is as much a place to settle childish scores as it is to buy/trade cards. Don't worry gang, I won't be at National.

I challenge you Scott to find a post where I disrespected anyone, please post it. I am the one who has been disrespected because of my opinion (by being bared from tables, harm wished upon), and have had to defend myself. I haven't had this problem with anyone except Scott and Leon. Please leave me alone, and you will be left alone in kind.

This is all I care to say about this. (I can't believe I'm even responding to this, but since you guys are long time board members I have to)

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Posted By: leon

I don't hate you. I don't even know you. I just don't want you butting into my business at my table. As far as I am concerned you are a friend like anyone else. No harm no foul. BTW, one of your statements about me having low grade cards was kind of ignorant. I hope you continue to post and are just up to the task. We all have to defend ourselves every now and then. It's just part of speaking publicly. Have a good one....

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Posted By: Billy

I owe Leon an apology for that statement. I am sorry Leon, that didn't or shouldn't have to do with what we were debating.

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Posted By: jay behrens

For members of the board, the National is all about getting together and beating the crap out of each other. Then the next night we all go out to dinner if they let you out of the hospital. We're just one big frat house here. Just no drunken brawls. You have to be sober to fight someone. There is another thread that outlines who will be beating who up at the National. Seriously, there is Feel free to add your name to the list.

I'd get in line to give my brother a beating, but I think he would enjoy getting a beatting from other people since I can already give him beattings as needed when he gets out of line.

Jay

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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Posted By: Billy

Maybe I should go to National then, lol. I can get one of those supersonic hearing devices that looks like a walkman and easily "butt in" on deals. If the dealer doesn't like it, you just schedule our match after the Behrens' brothers!!!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I haven't been to very many card shows, but I did attend one National, and none of the "black belt" talkers (no, Billy, you aren't the first to pull the "black belt" card) showed up - in fact, it was a very likeable crowd and not near as nerdy as I was expecting. The strangest thing was Mr. Mint and his bobble-heads...and the free Brittney Spears swatch cards.

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Posted By: tbob

Two times it has happened to me.
The first time I was desperately searching for a very tough card, a T212-2 1910 Obak with 150 series back of Willis. It has a different image than the 175 series. After 3 years of searching everywhere, I saw one on ebay. I immediately emailed the seller and made him an offer for what I considered the card was worth (book value) and he accepted. I sent the payment by PayPal and he ended the auction. A crybaby or maybe just someone who didn't like seeing me get a bargain emailed him and told him that ending auctions early on ebay was an offense which would get him thrown off ebay. He got scared, refunded my money and nixed the deal. I ended up getting sniped on the card. To complete the cycle, I ended up winning the very same card about 6 months later in an auction, I believe it was Barry Sloate's.
The second time I put an exish to exmtish T206 Rhoades right arm extended on ebay for sale. I mentioned in the ad that it was a very tough common card. It took off like a house on fire with 2 bidders running it up against each other and it sold for over $400 instead of the $100 or so I thought it would get. Immediately a couple of jackasses (one of whom posts on this board and yes I know who you are) emailed the happy buyer and told her she had paid way too much and did not get a good deal on the card.
These 2 examples are the flip side of the coin, Billy, where someone interferes AFTER the fact and tries to sour a contracted for deal simply out of some "moral" sense of outrage. I'll be at Scott and Leon's table gabbing with them in Chicago if you want to talk about this further but I have no puglistic intent as I am 55 years old and my high school fisticuff days are just a memory

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

What I get from this string----

Most feel that it is just not right to butt into dealings at shows, in person.

Most feel that it is okay to butt into dealings over the internet e.g. Ebay.

Any of us who have sent e-mails to bidders warning or informing them of an item of questionable legitimacy are butting in. Why the disparity?

I have received emails from some of you, and I appreciate them -- thanks for the concern.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

These are not two examples of someone interfering AFTER the fact. Granted, the second one is. But in the first case, you decided not to play by the rules - obviously others were watching that auction and objected to you interfering and having it ended before it ran it's natural course. This is a danger you face when you talk someone into ending an auction early. I wasn't the "crybaby" who "interfered", but I'm all in favor of such interference and have done it on multiple occasions. Ask Dan McKee.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

as much as I hate to side with scott on anything I do have to side with him w/r/t ending auctions early. I have ended early on non-bid, non-watch items because I know no one is being aced out of the item, but I don't like to do it and I don't like it when it is done to me, and I would not feel much of a sense of moral outrage if I butted into an early ending. Besides, aren't you afraid that asking a seller to end early will key the seller into the fact that the item is highly desirable and that you can be "extorted" for a much higher sum?

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Posted By: leon

I must say, regarding ending ebay auctions early, I like when I can get someone to do it and get away with it, but I hate it when it's done to me. I have been on both sides of the equation...If I had to vote I would definitely say it shouldn't be allowed. I have never ended an auction early but would only entertain the idea if there were no bids on it. I understand that bids can come in late, and others could be watching it, but oh well.....again, don't recall ending one early so it's sort of moot for me. I have been asked a gazillion times to end auctions early after there are bids. I definitely won't do that. regards all

edited so the post made a little more sense...

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Posted By: dennis

whenever someone asks me to end an auction early or makes an offer,i simply tell them to bid that amount on the item and maybe they'll get it cheaper. often they never even bid,which is confusing to me.ending an auction early is not an option.

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Posted By: tbob

Scott, you are missing the point on my first scenario. Let me say first that I have never ended one of my auctions early. Next, I have purchased a highly desired card before by making an offer to the seller and having him end the auction early. I have not done it often and cheerfully bid on the item if the seller says "no." I think it is a tad hypocritical for everyone to jump on the moral bandwagon when I know for a fact MANY posters here have done the same thing. I did it the first time out of self-preservation because I used to clench my teeth as cards disappeared that way. I can count on one hand the times I have done it and as long as ebay permits it and the seller is o.k. with it, I'll probably do it some time again. I guarantee you that if the only Series 150 Obak I need to complete my set appears on ebay I'll make the seller an offer he can't refuse. I might also point out that every offer I have made has been over "book" so it is not a case of taking advantage of an innocent.
Now, Scott, with regard to my point, my main objection was that someone lied to the seller and coerced him with threats in to nixing the sale. Ebay does NOT kick you off for ending an auction early. The 2 guys who made those blatant lies knew better. They also threatened and scared the seller. That is what was wrong. They didn't say "gee, you shouldn't have ended it early and sold it for $150 because it is worth $300" they lied and coerced the fellow. By the way the guy who eventually sniped me and bought it was not one of the 2 people. And I ended up buying it from Barry in his auction for almost the exact same price I offered the original seller.
I just think that there is a little too much holier than thou-ism going on around here sometimes.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

That is another very interesting quirk of human nature, isn't it? I've noticed that too, when I've been asked to end early by someone who never even bids and the thing sells for less than the offer.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I agree that lying to the seller is wrong. But with regard to the "moral bandwagon" and the "holier than thou" comments...I'm stating what I believe, just as you did. As Leon described, I don't have a problem with asking someone to end an auction early, but to get outraged when someone contacts the seller when the auction is pulled (at your request), is hypocritical.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

how is Tbob being "hypocritical" just by being mad at someone for contacting the seller for ending an auction early???? The ONLY way he would have been hypocritical is if he had done the same thing to other sellers when they ended auctions early - I NEVER remember him saying that!?!?!?!

As in the past when attacking my posts - you need to read each post more clearly before posting remarks!!!!!!!! I consider Tbob a friend, and to have someone call him "hypocritical" without just cause just pisses me off! If Tbob is "hypocritical", then I wished everyone was just like him - he is one of the MOST HONEST persons I have ever dealt with and does not whine around and pass judgement on people by misrepresenting their posts and what they say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

...getting into it with me. I've avoided responding to your ridiculous posts, but if you want me to start again, keep it up.

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Posted By: BCD

TBob needs a new scanner-period. Not ever ending an auction early is fair to all auction participants- and a nice gesture at that.Also end of story.

Crofts Cocoa Young- IN THE MAIL-TRIPLE END OF STORY~

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

is concerned with you, the board village idiot, getting pissed off.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

BTW - at least my post worked - runscott quit lying about Tbob's post and attacking him and is back to attacking me! At least when he is attacking me, he is leaving others alone.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

on representing yourself as both a hack board moderator and as a caramel expert, can we talk about the fake e95 Cobb that you sold as real? Seriously, just shut up.

Most of the slanderous comments you have made about myself, Doug Allen, and others, I realize are totally out of ignorance - you have swallowed so much of your own feet that you can't even taste them any more.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

ONE mistake out of handling tens of thousands of cards - a mistake that happened a few years ago. I bought the card from an eBay seller - Bill List from MD who had great feedback. When the card arrived (along with a dozen or so others I purchased that day), I simply chucked it away in the safe (foolishly trusting the seller's feedback and not looking at the card b/c I was too busy). I shouldn't have taken for granted the seller's feedback and Poor condition of the card - I should have examined it and looked at the back and front through my loupe. I did NOT - I learned not to trust anybody from that deal on ungraded cards (as several people make mistakes).

Sorry I am not perfect like you runscott. However, I do NOT alter items myself like your little buddies that you mentioned and not disclose the "stabilization" until I am caught. COME ON - I made one mistake - HOW MANY LIES HAVE YOUR BUDDIES TOLD AND HOW MANY CARDS HAVE THEY KNOWLINGLY "STABILIZED" AND MISLEAD PEOPLE ON PURPOSE!?!?!?!?

Also, from what Greg and others tell me, you don't handle enough cards to know much yourself - kinda like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?????

Also, speaking of your buddy Doug Allen, who stated on this board he did not use bleach to clean the T207 Red Cross Blackburne I consigned to Mastronet (when telling me the cleaning would involve a Q-Tip and Bleach), I checked the scans from the catalog - one can certainly tell the spot where the stain once was is MUCH WHITER. Also, the fact that the stain was cleaned was NEVER mentioned in the auction. Also, I have won E90-1 and T207 lots from Mastronet - NONE of the cards were listed as trimmed - some WERE (you can ask Tbob - I refunded his money on a couple Napoleon T207's from that lot)!!!!!!!!! In fact, they include several trimmed cards KNOWINGLY into lots to "HIDE" the fact they are trimmed.

Again, though I KNOW you will try and mislead and misrepresent what I have stated - I made a mistake - YOUR BUDDIES KNOWINGLY ALTER AND SELL ALTERED ITEMS!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Billy

yawn....
Run Scott should be a professor in ethics in my opinion. (don't take in personally, it's a noble profession)

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Posted By: Mike

It must of been 1998 or so, when E-bay was still in its infant stage. I was just starting to get into pre war cards at the time, and I was suprised and excited to find that these early cards where on e-bay at pretty affordable prices. At the time I couldn't imagine getting a Babe Ruth card for just a few hundred dollars. Or a card from the 19th century for the same. My pursuit started here. Systematically I tried to furfill my dream collection. I picked up a Ruth, and a Cobb, and a Cy Young. I then became almost obsessed with 19th Century history and its cards. My favorite? Ed Delehanty. I decided this would be my next pick up. Finally a N172 Old Judge Delehanty on e-bay... only it was in poor condition. The description read it had a whole corner missing (the upper right), and the photo was faded. I decided even for the bargain price it seemed to be going for, I would wait for another. The Ed Delehanty in poor condition sold for $125. I remember even for then that, that was a steal. But, I commited myself to the next one that would come along. Perhaps one in Good or VG condition. Only, I never saw another Delehanty on e-bay under $1000 again.

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Posted By: Bob

Scott- I don't know why you feel you have to unload on Scott Elkins just because he came to my defense. You ask anyone who regularly participates on this board and who I have had dealings with and they will tell you that I have always tried to be square and up front with everyone I deal with. And I have had nothing but great deals with Scott Elkins who has always been fair with me in his dealings, both as a seller and buyer.
Why you call me "hypocritical" for resenting the fact someone not only soured a transaction but lied and coerced an innocent seller is beyond me. I've never done this to anyone else at any time so how can you call my feelings hypocritical? I think you need to chill...
And Brian you are dead on right, I do need a new scanner.

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Posted By: MW

Jay, you're a dunderhead!

There. Just like the old days

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Once again you are being hypocritical. Did I unload on Scott, or did he perhaps unload on me first? Go read the posts, then chill yourself. I have ignored Scott Elkins's ridiculous posts for weeks, and planned to continue to do so. Now that my thoughts about this card hack are out in the open, I will resume ignoring his blather.

You have to expect that when you post so emotionally, there will be people who call you to task - I disagree with you, that doesn't mean I think you are dishonest. Scott Elkins, on the other hand, is not only dishonest, but also slanderous to an extent that is dangerous to others AND to himself.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I do not know how runscott gets I am dishonest? I have dealt and deal with several board members on a regular basis and have had nothing but fair trades and great experiences. I have never dealt with runscott on anything. How can he say I am dishonest when he has never dealt with me????

YES, I made one mistake a few years ago on a card I should have examined more closely. It was an honest mistake by someone who had too many irons in the fire at the time. Several people make mistakes. In fact, going back to our discussion about re-backed cards a few weeks ago, I have a major auction house catalog that CLEARLY has a PSA 2 re-backed Drum Cobb in it (one can even see the adhesive stains along the edge of the card in the holder)!

One thing I can honestly say is that I have NEVER altered a card myself nor ever will. I am a collector and consider any alteration ruining a piece of history. Can the people runscott mentions say this?????? The answer is NO!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Here are some of those "never dealt with runscott on anything" deals:

By the way, the Mino had writing on the back which you failed to disclose. One or two of the others also had back problems. You ARE t207redcross, Jimmy Scott Elkins, t206Uzitback...? Yes, I know you are. Over the years I have bought several cards from you, most with problems you failed to disclose, but your reputation preceeded you and I was able to get them cheap anyway. The Mino was the end of the line, though. I guess you have a pretty short memory? Hopefully you haven't forgotten what a e95 Cobb reprint looks like (BTW - most collectors don't need a magnifier to spot them).

> > Hello Scott,
> >
> > Congratulations on winning three of my eBay auctions. If you are
planning
> > on winning more, I will give you the total for all then with shipping
and
> > insurance. As for these three now, shipping and insurance will be $7.
I
> > ship immediately upon receipt of PayPal, Money Orders, and Cashiers
Checks
> > (Personal Checks are fine, but must clear before items are shipped).
The
> > total for these three auctions you have won is $147. If you want to
pay
> > now by PayPal, I will ship them out first thing in the morning!
> >
> > Thanks for bidding,
> >
> > Jimmy Scott Elkins
> > PO Box 145
> > East Stone Gap, VA 24246
> >
> > Hello Scott,
> >
> > Thought I would wait to hear from you before I ship the Mono - if you
> want,
> > you can pay the winning bid price of the T207 Napoleon Gardner you won
and
> > I will ship it with the Mono (saving you the $5 shipping and insurance
on
> > the Gardner). PLMK ASAP and I will hold off shipping the Mono until I
> hear
> > from you.
> >
> > Thanks as always,
> >
> > Scott Elkins

Hello Scott,

No problem. Looks like you did win the T207 Bresnahan with Napoleon back.
The total is $262 (which includes insured shipping in the US). If you are
paying with PayPal, my e-mail address is: tycobb@optidynamic.com. If you
are paying by other means, my address is below. Thanks for bidding and
good luck with the Detroit Free Press insert (I believe you might get that
one rather cheap, as they don't really do well on eBay).

Thanks again,

Scott Elkins
PO Box 145
East Stone Gap, VA 24246

> Subject: Re: Good news! 1909 E95 Cicotte Black Sox! Graded VG 3! (Item
#1854706596) ended successfully!
> Date: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:10 AM
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> I just sent payment of $147.00 via Paypal - thanks for offering these.
>
> Scott
>

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Also, most of the Monos I had did have some writing on the back (front and back scans are always included in my auctions and always 200x in size). I ALWAYS include large front and back scans in all my auctions - if you did not notice the writing, why blame it on me. I never describe cards - I give my grade and have large scans, letting the bidders determine their own grades!

You talk about getting the Mono cheaply - maybe it was because all the other bidders looked at the front AND back scans - unlike you who must have thought you were going to get a $5000 NM Mono for under $500.

You state now - several years later that the cards were NOT what I claimed them to be (EVEN THOUGH, I STATE IN MY AUCTIONS FOR THE BIDDERS TO LOOK AT THE ENLARGED SCANS AND DETERMINE THEIR OWN GRADES). Where is an e-mail you sent me stating you were not satisfied with the cards???? Why did you not inform me???? I remember after selling the three or four Monos I had that others e-mailed me wanting to buy some for more money than they sold for on eBay. I WISH you would have returned the cards - if you would have mentioned it, I would have sent your money back ASAP, so I could have made more money.

Bottom line - I NEVER heard one negative word against the cards until NOW - YEARS LATER! SO, TO MAKE A FORMER CUSTOMER HAPPY (EVEN THOUGH SEVERAL YEARS HAVE PASSED) - PLEASE RETURN THE CARDS FOR A FULL REFUND PLUS SHIPPING AND INSURANCE CHARGES!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOBODY OFFERS A REFUND AFTER THIS LENGTH OF TIME ON ANYTHING, BUT I WILL - NOW, HOW DISHONEST IS THAT???????

Also, when I stated I haven't dealt with you - I should have been more clear - I had not remembered any deals. As bad as you claim I am, I would have been certain it would have been a bad experience. SO, I AM NOW OFFERING TO BUY BACK THE CARDS YOU WERE NOT SATISFIED WITH YEARS AGO - PLEASE SEND THEM TO MY ADDRESS YOU HAVE VIA INSURED MAIL AND I WILL FORWARD A MONEY ORDER FOR THE PURCHASE PRICE, SHIPPING AND INSURANCE CHARGES, AND YOUR COSTS TO MAIL THEM TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

...is that you are a dishonest and naively slanderous idiot who knows dink about vintage cards. That's it. Ciao to this thread.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

that the slanderous, dishonest idiot would be yourself. I have now given you an opportunity, three years later to return cards you stated you were not satisfied with and never told me so at the time of purchase! If that is not honesty, I do not know what is! Do you think your buddies at Mastronet would do the same for me on the T207 and E90-1 lots I purchased where there were no scans of all the cards - especially the trimmed ones?????? NO!

Also, if you did not know the writing on the back of the Mono in the scan did not belong on the card, why did you not ask or look in the SCD at the back of the description card - pen writing sure looks different than the ink the cards were printed in! Then again, I could have just "stabilized" the cards like your buddies and there would have been NO WRITING on the cards!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - I know enough about vintage cards to determine from scans if there is extra writing on the back that is not from the factory. I also know enough that if I am not satisfied with an item or items that I tell the seller right away - not three years later. And, lastly, I know that I am not going to buy a NM $5000 card for under $500 listed in the Pre 1930 category - especially a Mono - Heck, that 10% of NM price ANYBODY knows (especially for rare cards) is PR/FR price - then, I guess you didn't know what the back should have looked like in the first place - that is why I am offering you a refund three years later!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Shouldn't you two guys be taking this dispute to the parking lot and not the board. You're airing your dirty laundry out and everyone has to read it.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Why did you decide to bring this thread back up? It had fallen way down the list and I wasn't responding to Scott.

Seriously, if you want the disputes to go away, play your part - ignore them and they will.

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Posted By: Bill Kasel

How dare you step into the middle of a hissy fit to try and regain some semblence of decorum on the board. It was a dead post as of Feb 1st at 7PM (umm that's just over 12 hours; not a long time). Sorry Scott, the two of you seem to hate, and love to publicly bash each other until someone does pull you off to the pricipal's office by your ears. I for one am glad Barry said something.

Bill Kasel

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

The thread was disappearing - you and Barry seem to be wannabe board moderators. You pick and choose when you will argue with others, then get the "holier than thou" attitude when it suits you.

I think you both enjoy this stuff, or you would have let it die.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'll admit that I didn't pay attention to the time of the last post and understand Scott Forrest's point. And I don't mean to take a "holier than thou attitude" and I understand where you are coming from with that. I just feel that the board should not be used to settle arguments. You know, there is email, and by emailing each other back and forth you can maintain a private discussion. That would seem to me to be more suitable. Do other board members agree that the site shouldn't be used to settle personal arguments?

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

...even I do. The problem is that when someone attacks you personally, you will usually respond.

In the future, I will try to ignore such posts. The other problem is that certain board members "can't be touched", i.e - if you question their opinions you get your *ss reemed by their buddies. Such was the case on this thread.

In the future, I won't respond either to the "attitude" posters, or to the "old school" "experts" that everyone loves so much.

What you all are in danger of creating here, by chasing off the more emotional posters who are also card-knowledgeable, is an environment where it's simply "ivory tower" icons responding to newbies.

Go for it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The only point I was making is if you have a problem with someone- and I'm the first to admit that problem is none of my business- why don't you just privately email each other? I think part of the reason you two are doing this on the board is to embarrass each other publicly. Sure, it's normal for people to have disagreements- and I'm not telling anyone that they shouldn't disagree. Just keep it between yourselves. Why do others who are reading the post have to be subjected to it ( I know, we are all free to click it off and go on to a different post)? That's all I'm saying. I don't mean to get in between the two of you. You have a right to air what's on your mind.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

You are completely correct. But I have to admit that unfortunately I am not usually able to ignore such things, and I don't like email fights either.

Each time this sort of thing comes up, I always ask myself "what do I really gain by posting here?" The answer is simple: nothing. I do it for fun, out of boredome, whatever, but it is extremely rare when anyone actually answers my questions about cards or memorabilia. If I really want an answer, I phone or email the appropriate person directly. I admit that I have made both contacts and friends from this board, including Barry, but 99.9% of the members who give me **** do not fall into that category.

The biggest benefit from this board is simply reading it. Selfish, but it's a fact. So this entire problem has a very simple solution.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Scott- I didn't want anything to get between us.
Just to change the subject, let me tell a story about one that got away from me. Back in the 1980's, an old-time collector was selling off his T206's and he sent me photocopies of 23 he had with better backs. Virtually all were NR MT (a few were VG's) and nearly all were commons (there may have been a couple of HOfers). As I recall he wanted $25 a card if I bought them all. I thought about it for a few days, but decided to pass.
All 23 cards had UZIT backs. I can't tell you how many times I've thought about that deal. It stings to this day.