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#1
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Posted By: Lee Behrens
I am curioous as to your thoughts as to why there is so little emphasis put on the "runs scored" statistic? Isn't that the object of the game to score more runs that your oppenant? Yet We rarely hear the statistic mentioned. |
#2
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Posted By: barrysloate
Runs scored are important but seem to be less so than runs batted in because there is something forceful about knocking a run in and something passive about standing on base and waiting for someone to drive you in. It's not part of the triple crown and to a degree you are at the mercy of the man at bat. |
#3
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Posted By: Dan Bretta
RBI are overrated statistics as well because they also rely on your teammates to get on base ahead of you. |
#4
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Posted By: barrysloate
OPS is definitely important and Barry Bonds is consistently off the charts. But it's hard to say that RBI's are overrated because the only way to win a baseball game is to score more runs than your opponent. You drive in runs, you probably win games. |
#5
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Posted By: Jim Hoffman
I agree that OPS is an important stat, but it bothers me in that by itself, it isn't really a measurement of anything. Kinda like the Quarterback Rating. |
#6
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Posted By: Dan Bretta
Who was more important to their team? Rob Deer or Brett Butler? Of course OPS doesn't factor in a player's defense and it could be argued that Brett Butler is a far superior player to Rob Deer, but we're discussing hitting stats so....as far as hitting goes they were roughly equally important to their team. |
#7
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Posted By: Dan Bretta
Barry, runs scored obviously are the most important team statistic, but I thought we were talking about individual statistics. |
#8
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Posted By: Anson
I've always thought total bases was an underrated statistic as well. |
#9
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Posted By: Dan Koteles
well in the day and age of the home run or nothing, many kids forget how this game is meant to be, runs scored is absolutely the most important , w/o em you cant win games. |
#10
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Posted By: barrysloate
No questions one's stats are skewed by the quality of the players who bat around him. Some guys can be productive anywhere, such as Miguel Tejada, who was fabulous in Oakland and even better in Baltimore. I think you really have to look at the total package to evaluate a player. Mel Ott had better stats than Pete Rose but the Reds always found a way to win and Pete was always in the middle of it. I don't think you can isolate any stat- Bonds has the best stats in history, yet his teams are generally slightly above average, and he's had some good players around him (but never someone good enough behind him so they wouldn't walk him so much). What does this all have to do with the value of runs scored? I don't know. |
#11
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Posted By: Brian
OPS is nice, but OBP*1.5 + SLG is a better indicator -- just not as easy to add up. In my mind, the purpose of a batter is to 'not make an out' |
#12
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Posted By: Judge Dred
Easy question related to the topic.... |
#13
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Posted By: Paul
I agree that OPS is, strictly speaking, a meaningless stat. But it is VERY close to what may be the most meaningful stat. There was a book written in the 80s called the Hidden Game of Baseball. (Great book!) The author determined the historic "run value" of a single, double, triple, and home run. Looking over every box score ever, he figured out, on average, how many runs a single, double, triple, or home run contributed to the score for the player's team. Based on this, he assigned a value to singles, doubles, triples, and home runs. Each single represents x runs, each double represents y runs, etc. I think the author also assigned a value to walks. |
#14
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Posted By: Daniel Bretta
And it pretty much proves that Pete Rose doesn't belong in the HoF anyway. |
#15
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Posted By: identify7
Billy Hamilton was one of them. But ain't there three? |
#16
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Posted By: Andrew Parks
Hamilton and George Gore - too easy Fred! |
#17
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Posted By: warshawlaw
I had no idea how good this guy was until I picked up an OJ of him and was inspired to buy and read the back of a 1961 Fleer of him. Hell of a hitter and baserunner. |
#18
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Posted By: Andrew Parks
His stolen base totals are schewed though. For a long time in the 19th Century, base-runners were given credit for a stolen base for going first to third and second to home on a single. |
#19
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Posted By: Judge Dred
Oops, Gil's right, there are threee. I forgot about Gore, that leaves one more. |
#20
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Posted By: Andrew Parks
Harry Stovey - I forgot him. |
#21
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Posted By: Darren J. Duet
I agree that runs scored is an underappreciated stat. Some players have a talent in being able to find the plate. It certainly isn't passive in all cases, nor is it necessarily dependant on the batter "hittin' you in." A runnner with the ability to stretch a hit, steal a base, and the awareness of when to stop and when to go will always score more runs. Base running and scoring are talents just as valuable as hitting and pitching. |
#22
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Posted By: Judge Dred
Rickey Henderson! |
#23
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Posted By: Andrew Parks
Henderson did it for a season in 1985 but not for a career. The three guys who did it for a career was Stovey, Gore, and Hamilton. |
#24
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Posted By: jay behrens
As often as I delved into this area it never occured to me to see if anyone has done the research to credit runners with earned and unearned runs like pirchers. This occured to me becuase in the 19c there were a huge number of unearned runs, which lead to very high scoring game and pitchers with really low ERAs. I'm will to bet that Rickey Henderson is comperable or better than Gore, Stovey and others with high runs per game numbers if you take into account earned versus unearned runs. |
#25
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Posted By: Judge Dred
My response of Rickey Henderson was for Darren's comments regarding players that are great base runners and base stealers. |
#26
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Posted By: identify7
Rickey Henderson, the all time stolen base leader, by a wide margin, stoled home four times in his career. |
#27
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Posted By: Andrew Parks
Gotcha, Fred. |
#28
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Posted By: Darren J. Duet
All good points, and granted there are stats that matter and stats that do no matter as much. For certain winning matters, and baseball for one is a TEAM sport. |
#29
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Posted By: Dan Bretta
It may be a team sport, but in no other team sport is the individual performance more celebrated than in baseball. |
#30
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Posted By: jay behrens
Baseball is a team sport, but main component of the game is a mono-a-mano match up between the batter and pitcher. This is why individual person is valued and celebrated in baseball. |
#31
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Posted By: Darren J. Duet
Good points dan and jay, but the object of the game is to win. There are immeasurable and measurable aspects to achieve that goal. |
#32
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Posted By: Judge Dred
I wonder how Steve Carlton felt after the 1972 season....? |
#33
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Posted By: Dan Bretta
He probably felt like a one-man team. |
#34
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Posted By: Dave Williams
If my memory serves me, the original triple crown (according to Bill James in his historical abstract) was BA, HR, and Runs scored. |
#35
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Posted By: Darren J Duet
Jay, |
#36
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Posted By: Lee Behrens
How many runs did Mark McGwire score? I believe there are many non-homerun hitters that scored more runs in a season. Does this not make on non-homerun hitter more valuable? By the way, If I was to have a choice between Rickey Henderson in his prime over McGwire I would take Rickey everytime. |
#37
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Posted By: Daniel Bretta
Well the non HR hitters that lead the league in scoring are usually batting in the 1-2 spot and have the big hitters knocking them in. Both are equally important in the lineup. A guy like Rickey Henderson scored a lot of runs because he got on base and usually put himself in scoring position. Guys like Henderson are a dying breed in these days of 150+ strikeouts as guys swing from their heels, but the tide is turning as the steroid testing is now in place. I read recently that at the current homerun pace there will be 700 fewer homeruns hit this year over last. That's huge. And IMO good for the game. It may leave a few sluggers out of the Hall of Fame though as more and more voters will recognize the 1986-2004 era as the Steroid Era. |
#38
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Posted By: Darren J Duet
After all the OPINIONS are in, and some skewing--Baseball is a TEAM sport. |
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