Greatest Pitchers Ever ?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think you have to consider the NUMBER of overall victories AND the career winning percentage in order to get a TRUE idea of how good a pitcher was. They must have proved themselves over a LONG period of time, not just a short stint.

Phil Neikro had 300+ wins... but had 274 losses.

Sandy Koufax only had 6 dominating seasons.

Whitey Ford had the benefit of the Yankee lineup giving him run support.

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BUT.....

there are only THREE pitchers in HISTORY who have won over 300 games AND won more than 65% of the games in which they pitched:

LEFTY GROVE: 300-141 (.680)
ROGER CLEMENS: 334-167 (.667)
CHRISTY MATHEWSON: 373-188 (.665)



I don't know who else would make up the "Top 5" pitchers of All-Time...

but these three MUST be included on any list.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Add in Spahn and Alexander to round it out.

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Posted By: Anson

That's certainly one way to look at it. However, Many pitchers end up on crappy teams with no run support. Just as an example, look at Clemens record early in the year.

There really isn't one true stat that shows the effectiveness of a pitcher. You have to look at the whole picture.

The three pitchers you mentioned would certainly end up on most peoples'lists however.

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Posted By: leon

I don't think you can ever talk about the greatest pitchers of all time without mentioning the Big Train Walter Johnson. 110 career shutouts, led the league 12 years in strikeouts, 11 times had an ERA under 2.00..... and played on a crappy team ....I think he lost about half his games with his team giving him 2 or less runs to work with.....He has to be almost at the top, imo...regards

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Nolan Ryan fan, I'd enter him in based on the 'on the crappy teams' clause.....I know he only won about 30-40 games more than he lost but his supporting casts were often less than the best........I'm sure that nomination will upset some folks, but had he been on better teams in the 1970's and 80's, he'd have 400 wins I think.........

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

The greatest pitcher ever? Walter Johnson.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Speaking of Nolan Ryan and Walter Johnson really makes you appreciate how great CLEMENS is...

since all 3 of them have a TON of strikeouts...

but only Clemens has the 300+ wins AND the 65%+ winning percentage.

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Posted By: Chad

And this is on no particular order:

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Satchel Paige
Tom Seaver
Roger Clemens
Smokey Joe Williams
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Pete Alexander
Warren Spahn

Man, that leaves off a lot of good pitchers--Cy Young, Randy Johnson, Rube Foster, Gaylord Perry, Juan Marichal, Koufax, Bob Gibson. It's just impossible to decide with pitchers. As for Nolan Ryan, he was a great pitcher, but I wouldn't take him over any of the guys I've mentioned. I don't mean that as a knock on him, tho. He's obviously a legit hall of famer.

--Chad

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

HAL

I am surprised you considered Clemons instead of Johnson.
The numbers do not always tell the "real story" as applied to
pitchers. The "numbers game" is more suitable to batters.

Most do not appreciate that Johnson pitched with a modified
sidearm motion. Its amazing his effectiveness endured all those
years.

Besides, I rather see your Ramly pix of the "the Big Train".

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Posted By: john/z28jd

edited because my scan was putting page off-center


my actual top 5 is in this order:
Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
Roger Clemens

I never had Clemens top 5 till after last seasons but i dont see him going any higher than 5th

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Without a doubt Walter Johnson is the greatest pitcher who ever lived.

W-417
L-279
%-.599
G-802
GS-666
CG-531
SH-110
SV-34
IP-5914 1/3
H-4913
HR-97
BB-1363
SO-3509
ERA-2.17

The two big numbers that really stand out to me are complete games (531) and shutouts (110), and when you add in 417 wins on a team that was almost never good....I think his numbers say it all.

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Posted By: Kieran

I was up at the HOF a few weeks back and actually had this same discussion with a few of the old boys. We talked about ranking hitters and of course it became impossible - the talk of steroids and the advances in nutrition and working out came up. I think they are still yelling at each over how is better Bonds or Ruth.

Thankfully, pitchers are easier in a certeain sense. Every top pitcher faced the best hitter of there era..Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, Jolt'n Joe, Mantle, Aarron, Mays - all the way up to a bonds or Pujols. With that said how do you judge who is the best pitcher? I think this is where you have to look at EVERY stat. If a great pitcher is on a bad team he might have a low win total but his ERA should be good...and of course great winning pitchers could have bad ERA's.

So with that comes this fans top 11 pitchers of all time.

1) Walter Johnson
2) Roger Clemens
3) Christy Mathewson
4) Cy Young
5) Lefty Grove
6) Greg Maddux
7) Satchel Paige
8) Warren Spahn
9) Pedro Martinez
10)Pistol Pete Alexander
11) Nolan Ryan


"I have had balls thrown at me my whole life. When I turned 30 I started to really hate balls - I didnt like the smell, feel or taste!"

Yogi Berra - 1975

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Posted By: Chad

I left off Lefty Grove! I need coffee. Fast.

--Chad

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Posted By: dennis

maybe feller is out spoken on his talent,because he gets no credit...no one has yet to mention his name and i happen to believe all who post here are quite intelligent in baseball history. feller won 266 games and missed almost 4 years due to ww2. between 1939 & 1948 his w-l totals were 24-9,27-11,25-13,5-3 in 9 games in'45,26-15 & 20-11....he struck out 348 in 1946...he did this when guys tried not to strike out.if you add 80 victories for the years he missed he could have won 350 games.i'm not saying he was the best pitcher ever but he should be in everyone top 10. mine are in progression young matty,alexander,johnson,grove,feller,spahn,gibson, randy jonson and clemens

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Posted By: Chris McAlister

Without a doubt, Walter Johnson.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Feller was great... but so was Koufax for a short time.

While we can assume that Feller would have been dominant in those 4 years he missed... and while we can applaud his reason for missing them...

we can't change the fact that he missed them.

WHAT IF he had suffered a career-ending arm injury during those years?

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I was trying to determine which pitchers had the BEST CAREERS...

not necessarily which pitcher I would want on the mound for a ONE GAME championship in which the pitcher must be great but only for that one game.

I agree that Walter Johnson would be in my Top 5:

Mathewson
Grove
Clemens
Johnson...

and one other. Don't know who yet.

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Posted By: Chad

He was getting major league hitters out when he was 87 years old and had to attach his arm to his body with silly putty and surgeon's thread. And he was a good quote!

--Chad

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Posted By: Tom L.

Bob Gibson
Babe Ruth
Amos Rusie
Bob Feller

Just some food for thought.

Tom

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Various Negro League and Cuban web sites credit Satchel Paige with having 1,500+ career wins and over 300 shoutouts!!!

Can you only imagine what his MLB stats would be if the Yankees had been able to sign him to pitch for them from 1927-1947 on those powerhouse teams???

Heck, having 2 or 3 days rest between starts would have been TOO MUCH for him!! He probably would have pitched every other game!!

Stupid color barrier. Grrrrrrrrrrrr

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

AL SPALDING won 80% of his games and had 250 career wins!!!

BUT... I don't consider him for the same reasons as Koufax and Ford.

He played on a team that always won...

and he did it in a very short time.

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Posted By: identify7

Certainly Games won and winning percentage are good yardsticks for pitching performance. But they rely a bit on the team that is behind you. that is a part of the reason that Johnson and Ryan stand out.

A pitcher tho, wins games by giving up fewer runs than his team scores. Two pitchers have lifetime ERAs under 2, Joss and Walsh.

This is where Johnson and Matty shine, both are just over 2.

But Johnson has it all. Wins, Ks, ERA, shutouts and more. There is just nobody second to him, in my estimation. Didn't somebody get over 500 wins? How did he do that?

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

I'd choose Johnson as the greatest ever, with Grove and Alexander right behind. Johnson's consistent dominance on a team that was never great until the end of his career puts him over the top. If Johnson had pitched for the teams Mathewson got to pitch for, there would be no question as to who the greatest pitcher ever was.

Even with the high esteem he is held, I don't think Grove gets the credit he deserves. People have a tendency to get mesmerized by deadball era E.R.A's, and while they are impressive, the era in which a pitcher played needs to be taken into context when looking at his E.R.A. totals. To me, Grove's ability to consistently keep his E.R.A. under 3.00 while pitching almost his entire career in an extremely hitter friendly era, is an incredible achievement and makes him the second best.

Chad, to answer your Satchel question - From everything I have ever read, one could definitley make a case for Paige being among the greatest ever, but I don't feel that I have enough information to judge. I may have never seen Johnson, Matty, or Alexander, but I do have numbers and the quality of their teams that I can use to compare them - I have always felt that people who choose the Negro League stars for all time teams are picking with their hearts rather than their heads because they really don't have anything to base it on other than anecdotal evidence.

One more question for others to answer if they choose...if you had one game that your life was riding on, who would you want to pitch it?

For me, that one is a no brainer...Bob Gibson

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Posted By: Steve

Sidd Finch



Id go with Gibson though if I needed a win.

For you Vinatge guys Pete Alexander

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Posted By: Kieran

In regards to Paige, if he played his full career in the Big League then there is no doubt in my mind he woul dbe regarded as the greatest pitcher ever.

Skill wise i cant see anyone that compare.

"I have had balls thrown at me my whole life. When I turned 30 I started to really hate balls - I didnt like the smell, feel or taste!"

Yogi Berra - 1975

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Posted By: jay behrens

I forget the exact number, but Johson holds the record for most 1-0 losses in a career. It's somehting over 50. As with his shutouts, no other pitcher is close.

If I need to win one game, taking a pitcher in his prime, it's either Koufax or Johnson. If I want to watch one pitcher, one last time, just for the hell of it, it's Ryan. Every time he stepped on the mound, he was threat to throw a no-hitter. Or maybe I'll chose Mark Fydrich instead. Never a dull moment with him. Then have Hal Hrbosky come in to relieve him.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Still amazes me that one player won 94 games...

had a .671 career winning percentage...

and a career ERA of only 2.27...

AND HIT 714 HOME RUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

The Greatest Pitcher Ever?- MATTY

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Koufax, Clemens. My next five would be Young, Grove, Feller, Spahn, Maddux.

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Posted By: identify7

Hal: After two years of walking more batters than he struck out, Boston dumped Ruth off to NY. When he showed no signs of improvement they tried him in the field, fortunately that worked out for him. A few years later, the same thing worked for O'Doul.

Edited to add: In 1912 and 1913 Mathewson had more wins than walks. In 1919 Sallee did too.

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Posted By: JimB

I was a big fan of Nolan Ryan's. But he did have a control problem. I wouldn't put him in my top 10. Walter Johnson gets the top spot in my book.
JimB

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Posted By: warshawlaw

O'Doul had a dead arm and went the minors after being released by the Yankees and Red Sox. He resuscitated his career there then went back up with the Giants in 1928.

Ruth was not dumped on the Yankees then converted. He was switched to the outfield part time in 1918 when he hit 11 HRS in 95 games and went 13-7 in 20 starts, then broke the record with 29 HRs in 1919 and still went 8-5 in 17 games as a pitcher. He was then sold for $100,000 in cash and a $350,000 loan. His pitching totals fell his last two years with Boston because he was playing out of the rotation and not pitching a normal turn.

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Posted By: Shannon

My top five in no particular order Johnson,Clemens,Mathewson,Alexander and Feller who is probably #5, its just too bad the war robbed him of 4 of his prime years with 3 no hitters and a record 12 one hitters its tuff to leave him off.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Look at 1952 for Bob Feller:

In the prime of his career... on a very succesful team...

and his stats STINK.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1952.shtml

Was he hurt this year or something?

Every other pitcher on the team won 20+ games...

and he had a LOSING record with 0 shutouts and a 4.74 ERA.

Anyone know why?

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Posted By: Glenn

1. Clemens
2. Johnson
3. Mathewson
4. Young
5. Alexander

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Posted By: Kieran

Clemens best ever?

Being a die hard Yankee fan I love the guy but and he is one of the greatest but...#1?

"I have had balls thrown at me my whole life. When I turned 30 I started to really hate balls - I didnt like the smell, feel or taste!"

Yogi Berra - 1975

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Posted By: identify7

Well yes Warshawlaw, the facts appear to differ from my statements.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Feller was on the downside of his career by 52, Hal. Didn't he start in 37?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Peter:

Feller started in 1936... but was only 17 years old!!

The link that I posted listed how old every player was during that season...

and Feller was only 33 in 1952.

If Feller was going to be one of the All-Time Greats... then he would have been hitting on all cylinders at Age 33 with a lot more left in the tank.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

But I will agree that if Feller had STAYED in the states and pitched in 1942, 1943, 1944 and all of 1945...

against the DEPLETED lineups that most teams were fielding...

he almost certainly would have added another 75 victories to his total!!

This would have given him about the same number of wins as CLEMENS currently has.

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Posted By: cn

I may be biased being a diehard Mets fan but 100 more wins than losses on lousy hitting teams. Tom Terrific The Franchise is my choice. With all the good pitchers the Mets have had Seaver,Koosman,Ryan,Cone,Gooden,Martinez etc. still no one has pitched a no hitter in a Mets uniform.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Has to be the most overrated pitcher of all time, if not player of all time. Strikeouts and no-hitters are fascist. Great pitchers win despite adversity, and Ryan nearly ended up being the only pitcher to win over 300 games, but lose more times than he won. He also never won a Cy Young Award. Ever. Not even one. Plus he walked a billion people, which is why his no-hitters were never perfect games. Just about every pitcher listed on this link so far is tons better than Ryan. For me it starts with Grove, Matty and Johnson. The other two in the top five are debatable, but I'd probably wind up with Koufax and Gibson. Maybe Paige. But tell Ryan to get in the back of the line and take his 4,000+ walks with him.

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Posted By: Glenn

Hear, hear! I haven't done a complete list, but I suspect I'd have Ryan about 25th. (Not sure that strikeouts and no-hitters are fascist though.)

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Posted By: dennis

feller turned 34 in '52 and was injury free. back then 34 was old, players(even great ones see hornsby & foxx)were usually on the down side in their early 30's.

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Posted By: robert a

I know Cy Young doesn't really need to be defended, but lets give him a little more consideration for top five pitchers ever.

Cy Young Wins: 511 in 22 years
Johnson Wins: 417 in 21 years
Matty Wins: 373 in 17 years

All three dominated in slightly different eras.

It's so hard to compare pitchers like Clemens to Cy Young though.
Young had 749 Complete Games. That only tells me that the game was completely different.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hard to compare pitchers across generations. One way is to answer this question: which pitcher would you want to pitch Game 7 of the World Series on two days rest? That's an easy one: Koufax. Pitched a 4 hit, complete game shutout in Game 5 against the Twins in Game 5; comes back on two days rest and pitches even better: a 3 hit, complete game shutout to clinch the Series.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Id want Mathewson to pitch if i had one game with everything on the line but i still rate him 3rd.I think his 3 shutouts in one W.S. cemented that choice

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Posted By: Anson

If this were top SEASON ever by a pitcher, add Jack Chesbro to the list. I believe it was 1904 when he devistated the league. He was 41-12 with a 1.82 ERA and 239 Ks. That's plain disgusting.

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Posted By: Julie

As for who else, I can see Matty, Alexander, Young, Clemens, Grove, Gibson Radbourne, Ruth (too small a sample?), and others you have mentioned--but get Ryan out of there!

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Posted By: Rob

But I guess you can't argue with numbers of the other guys. Modern day would have to be Clemens. I haven't seen stats of the pre-war guys * ducks a chucked head of lettuce * so I can't really list them.

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Posted By: Glenn

Hey, who took my lettuce?