T222 Fatima of Jack Lelivelt

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A few years ago I interviewd George Archie for the oral history project. He was a kind, gracious fellow, happy to talk baseball. He lost about the most time of anyone to WW II, he was one of the first ones in, and one of the last ones out...

He'd been a big star in the PCL before the war. He had been in the Tigers organization and won "free agency" from Landis because of the way the Tigers had kept him in the minors. Mr. Archie was having a difficult time making it to the big leagues to play in Hank Greenberg's place. Mr. Archie bought a house with the money Landis got him.

I asked Mr. Archie who he'd encountered who seemed to be most knowledgeable about the game... he said it was Jack Lelivelt, who'd been his manager at Seattle.

Upon hearing that I sought out Lelivelt cards. I got the guides to "correct" the Colgans Chips listing, which incorrectly identified the Lelivelt card as Jack, when it was really Bill. I got a couple of Lelivelt Zeenuts... And I've always wanted a Lelivelt T222.

I'd never seen one. But one just closed on eBay?? Anyone here willing to admit that they were the buyer? I hope the buyer reads this, was buying Lelivelt to upgrade an old raggedy card, and he'll sell the old card to me.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150124616373&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:12

Frank.

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Posted By: leon

That has to be the highest price ever paid for a T222 common. It must be an extremely difficult card to go that high and in that grade (nice but not spectacular)....

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Posted By: barrysloate

There were only four total bidders and only three over 1K, so the card meant something important to them. Maybe it's both a tough card and among the highest graded examples.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

In Mr. Lipset's Encyclopedia, Volume 3, he mentions those little numbers that are on some of the Fatima player cards. 5 of the 52 have no number, I think of those as the first 5. Of the remaining 47, the numbers vary... 2 to 9, and 12 to 15. Those with 12, 13, 14, or 15 on them are much more difficult. Jack Lelivelt cards have 15 on them. I figure those are the absolute toughest.

Top bidder was at $3,046.
Next highest was $2,996.
And third bidder had $2,007.

At least 3 different folks were over $2,000 for the card. I've wanted one for years, but have never seen an individual one for sale. Until this one. And now that I've seen a price set, I doubt if I ever get one.

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Posted By: joe

Anyone have any idea what Vitt would well for in this condition?

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ossie Vitt has a "5" on him... so he's not considered one of the very difficult ones.

My thinking is that they are all difficult. I have only 3. I'm guessing $400 to $550 in nice shape, but I live stuck in the past and undervalue all old cards.

I once talked with a fellow who collected these cards as a kid. He's passed away, now. But he recalled bugging grownups for the cards as they got their cigarettes. He had about 300 of the baseball players, he told me. But he said he never managed to complete a set. He was shooting for the 100 cards mentioned on the back. I didn't have the heart to tell him there were only 52 issued. I listened to his recollections... and I asked him what happened to them. He said he came back from college one summer and his mom had thrown them away. That was in the late 20s. After he told me that, I just couldn't tell him there were only 52 baseball players, or what the cards would sell for today...

Mom's have been at it for generations. That's part of what gives the cards value, for those who're concerned about such.

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Posted By: joe

Thanks Frank, I only have 1, Jennings, need Vitt to complete Tigers, only 2 Tigers that I know of.


Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: RC

OK Frank, you've got me. I've looked and looked and I don't see the "15" on the Lelivelt
card. Any clues?

RC

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well I had a time finding it, too. I knew Mr. Lipset said it was a 15, so it must be there... I finally found it.

It is immediately under the first "L" in Lelivelt. If you enlarge the photo it blurs to the point it is difficult to see.

If you copy the image, then zoom in on that first L, then gradually back out of that, you'll see the little "15"...

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Posted By: RC

OK, now I feel better. Almost like a super sleuth!
Honestly, I don't think I would have found it without the help.

RC

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

You are quite welcome, and it is elusive!

Now help me find a fair to good T222 Lelivelt for about $150 to $200, please sir.

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Posted By: Mike Peich

Hi Frank,

The Lelivelt is a tough card in the T222 set, but even more difficult is Lee Magee, St. Louis, another of the cards marked with a 15. There are only five cards with the number 15: Henry, Walter Johnson, Lelivelt, Hans Lobert, and Lee Magee. I have 51 of the 52 cards in the set, and desperately need Henry to complete my set. I do have a spare L. Magee (SGC 10) that I would gladly trade for a Henry, if anyone has one for tade. But, I'd better be careful about asking for a trade in a non-BST thread. (All hail, Leon!)
Happy Memorial Day to all.

Cheers, Mike

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Posted By: leon

You always adhere to the spirit of board policies. No worries. No need to walk on eggshells . When speaking about cards, and giving other very good factual information I don't think asking if someone has the last one you need is that bad...have a good evening..btw, I knew about the little numbers on the front...the Trucker Boy find had some T222's and one was a 13 or 14...or some high number.....regards

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Mike, I have now hoisted you atop one fine pedestal... anyone with 51 of 52 of the T222s, he is a Great Collector.

How long have you been chasing them? And do you have an example of the original packaging?

Frank.

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Posted By: Mike Peich

Hi Frank,

Thank you for the kind words. I saw my first T222 at the Atlantic City National three years ago. Bill Cornell had just picked up a beauty, I think an SGC 50 of a player I don't remember. He showed me his acquisition and it was lust at first sight. They appealed to me because of the photography, and I've been after them ever since.

No, I don't have any original packaging, but would love to acquire an example. In fact, Bill is the only person I know with a complete set, but I'm certain there are other members on the Board who have completed their sets. IMHO the toughest members of the set are, not necessarily in this order, Lelivelt, L. Magee, Johnson, Henry (there's that name again!), J.C. Smith, and Vitt. I should note, too, that Vitt and J. C. Smith are also number 15 and I failed to include them in my first post, thus there are seven number 15s. I was in such a hurry to post that I didn't read far enough down on my database! Mea culpa.

Cheers, Mike

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Posted By: Anonymous

Hey Mike...

Thanks for the great information.

Mr. Lipset shows Vitt as a 5. We know that he had typos in his work. If you say Vitt is a 15, I believe that. And we need to get the Standard Catalog to amend their listing.

Might you post a scan of Vitt in a week or two?


They are great cards...


Frank.

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Posted By: Mike Peich

Frank,

I had Vitt listed as a 15 in my database, and he IS a 5. I hate being so sloppy, so amend my comments by noting that there are six number 15s, not seven. That said, Vitt is still difficult.

Does anyone have a Henry laying around that they don't need, hint, hint?

Mea culpa, Mike

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Mike.

I don't have him among my 3. But if I find one I'll either get him to you or let you know where he is.

Those Fatimas are rascals to find.


And what about that $3k price? I recall a couple of near sets in auctions a few years ago, and I don't think they went for much over that...

Still, the man won a T222 Lelivelt, and there aren't that many of those out there.