T215 Pirates group in Mastro Live Auction

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Posted By: leon

From our friends at SGC:

"We want to make it absolutely positively clear that the group of 1912 T215 "Pirate" cigarette cards in the upcoming Mastro sale are NOT hand cut. Every one was carefully examined by the SGC graders. They have all of the characteristics of a card that has been cut with a machine at a factory. The cards were cut very similarly to T206s and have the same traits that we outlined in the T206 trimming article some months ago in the SGC Collector magazine. When we graded these T215s we were well aware of the fact that a few T215s have been sold in the past few years that were hand cut. However, that does not mean that every T215 was hand cut and these most certainly were not hand cut. If you have any questions on these or any other SGC graded cards feel free to call our offices."


edited to put parenthesis to be more clear that this originated from SGC

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Do we call Leon's office, SGC or Mastro's office???

Thanks for the heads up, but Is this message being put out by Leon, or all of the above?

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Maybe the statement was issued by a group of Cubans living in Alaska, Joe.

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Posted By: leon

If you can read maybe you should read this at the end of the statement...

"If you have any questions on these or any other SGC graded cards feel free to call our offices."


and as I said it was from SGC that is where you should call.....and I still don't have a clue about your Cuban post...

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Posted By: Zinn

Most of us get it but had you put "...." around the statement it would have been absolutely clear from where it originated.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Maybe it's a connection to Global warming, and cardboard Meltdown?

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Posted By: James Feagin

Count me suspicious about the T215 Pirates unless some legit provenance pops up. I don't care what SGC says, unless these came from some unknown overseas horde, I would stay away from this if I had that kind of $$$ (which I probably never will). By the way, why the heck are they called T215's anyway? Isn't that Red Crosses designation?

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Posted By: Josh

How many total of these Pirate backs are there in circulation, aka what's the pop report on these cards?
Also, does anyone have an image/scan of a Pirate cigarette pack?

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

And I would go as far as saying, that if you thought about it ... you would also be able to tell us the reason why.

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Posted By: Bob

Is the Mastro auction at National limited only to invitees only or can anyone bid there?

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Posted By: Josh

Joe,
Until you can appologize for your lack of common courtesy towards me, please refrain from responding to any of my posts.
Thank you.
Josh

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

Although the information is still pretty sparse on the Live Auction, Mastro does have a "live preview" link up on their website with some of the items that will be available.

Per their website, items in the live auction will be available for online bidding starting July 23rd.

As far as actually showing up and bidding in person, that does require an invitation.

Regards and see you in Cleveland!

Scott

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Posted By: Cobby33

There are only 3 on PSA's pop. report. Aside from this new horde, I don't think SGC ever graded any.

They use the same images as the T215 Red Cross issues, ergo the T215 designation (which is probably outdated, but shouldn't be changed at this point).

Supposedly, the Mastro horde was the group upon which the original checklist was created. I've only heard that once, however (maybe even on here).

Finally, I was under the impression that there was only one of each player/pose. Depending upon the breadth of the Mastro horde, there may be 1-2 of each player/pose (or more than one on some, but not all subjects)...

P.S. I don't see any reason to be suspicious about T215 Pirates in general, however, it seems a little unusual that such a grouping of such a rare type have been discovered all of a sudden.

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Posted By: Josh

Thanks Cobby!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So now we're suspicious about SGC's ability to spot a hand-cut card? Don't you guys think that SGC was especially careful with this group of cards considering their significance to the hobby?

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Joe,
"Until you can appologize for your lack of common courtesy towards me, please refrain from responding to any of my posts.
Thank you."
Josh

*
*

Sonny, look again.
You're the one that keeps touching on the topic.
Looks like I touched a truth nerve.

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Posted By: Jason L

I'm working on another "find" in my basement right now!
a large group of T215, a mint stash of T227, and 3 Wagners.

When I'm done, I'll transport them from my basement to my grandpa's attic, and then onto Ebay! I'll let you know how they turn out

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Posted By: leon

I hear the FBI is investigating their grading.....I read it in the newspaper....it has to be true....

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Posted By: Josh

Jason,

With that stash, you can buy the Cubs!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, you couldn't have read it in a newspaper. You just think you read it. I don't see a copy of the newspaper article. I think it's imaginary. Did you actually read it or did you dream you read it? You'll need to post it here. With the date showing. And a picture of you holding a sheet of paper saying "I'm Leon and I pee in my back yard when I'm not lighting myself on fire in my front yard" next to it.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jeff changed his avatar and now I'm all freaked out. It's like walking into my office and having the furniture be all rearranged.

-Al

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Posted By: leon

The allegation was reprinted from a year ago.....so it has to be absolutely, unequivocally true today....

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Posted By: Cat

Just curious.... Is there an over/under on this lot? Real expensive?

$90ish ?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Al, I think you may be seeing things.

Before you begin to think you've lost your mind...the Cracker Jack Chase just didn't do it for me either.

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Posted By: Zinn

I think 90K would be an absolute bargain. But that's just me.

Think about it, less than 1K per card? No way.

I was thinking that the lot may go for more like 500K or more. Maybe I'm crazy but again that's just me.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'll guess 300K-400K.

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Posted By: Mark M

I wonder if Pirates should even have an ACC designation since they was produced by an English tobacco company. None of that issuer's boxing cards has an ACC designation. I know the images are the same as Red Cross and they may have been distributed to U.S. military persons oversees, but these were not sold in the U.S. or issued by a U.S. company.

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Posted By: robert a

I wouldn't care if they were hand cut or not.
You can't find them either way.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

My understanding...and please correct me if I am wrong:

A hoard of desired and valuable cards show up, virtually out of nowhere. Previously only three graded (known?) and were all hand cut. Now an auction company who admittedly alters cards and is under investigation by the FBI is selling them. They were sent to SGC but not graded(?), where each were deemed factory cut based on an article their boss (let’s not go there) wrote.


Kevin

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Posted By: Jason L

Yup!

Pretty neat, huh?

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Posted By: leon

I am sure you are saying the FBI think as tongue in cheek? It's hard to tell behind a keyboard, sometimes. I was joking of course. As for these being factory cut....I trust SGC.....

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Posted By: T206Collector

They were sent to SGC and graded because they were deemed factory cut under the standards explained in their very enlightening articles on how to detect trimmed T205 and T206 cards. It's not that they deemed them factory cut because they wrote an article saying they were factory cut, as your post suggests.

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Posted By: JimB

"My understanding...and please correct me if I am wrong:

A hoard of desired and valuable cards show up, virtually out of nowhere. Previously only three graded (known?) and were all hand cut. Now an auction company who admittedly alters cards and is under investigation by the FBI is selling them. They were sent to SGC but not graded(?), where each were deemed factory cut based on an article their boss (let’s not go there) wrote.


Kevin"

Kevin,
You are wrong here on a number of counts. It is my understanding that these come from an old collection from which the original checklist was made. Thus they do NOT constitute a new find - just a re-emergence to the hobby. I would not consider the Nagy or Carter collections new finds to the hobby. There are more than three others known. I would guess we can come up with more than three in the collections of board members. They were sent to SGC, examined carefully and found to have been factory cut, not hand cut. They each received numerical grades from SGC.

Why are people here so fond of spreading fear and paranoia? When there is substance, great. But let's not create it out of nowhere. You all sound like the government sometimes.
JimB


edited for spelling

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Wasn't trying to spread fear.

I said "correct me if I am wrong"....and you did just that! So now I understand .

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Good chance on the next doorprize..........what the Pirates will go for.......
I'm banking on post 500K

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Posted By: Paul

The auction houses often publicize the origins of a rare item. Has Mastro done so here? I would be interested to know how one collector long ago was able to essentially monopolize this set. He had more than 90 and no one else had more than one.

I'm not at all suggesting anything fishy. I just think it would be a very interesting story.

Edited to change "fishing" to "fishy".

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Posted By: Anthony

Didn't one collector monopolize the Alpha Engraving set? And the Allegheny set? Tough to do, but it certainly seems possible.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

Card collecting is very well established in the UK. They make us look like rank amateurs.
The Pirates are a European issue and it would make perfect sense if the only known hoard of them to date came from an advanced collector over there. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if these were not the only group to exist. The reason they are so rare here is that in order to get back to the US, it would have to travel back after being kept by a soldier at war.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I dunno...just something seems odd about the whole thing. Just can't put my finger on it.

Sure would like to examine one (or more) in person though. I trust my unbiased eyes.


Kevin

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Posted By: JimB

Has anybody else noticed the tendancy on this board for people to bash the cards they don't have from the Gretzky Wagner to the T206 Cobb/Cobb back, T206 Doyle, virtually all high grade vintage cards, and now these Pirates? Maybe a little honest self-reflection is in order.
JimB

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Unbiased?

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- in all fairness, since I was the one who started the thread that questioned whether the Cobb with Cobb back was truly a T206, were we bashing it or simply saying there is a reasonable chance that it has been improperly attributed? It seemed like an intelligent discussion with no bashing at all.

And while I believe that there is nothing at all wrong with this group of Pirate cards, it is a little unusual that typically one shows up every couple of years and then suddenly 95 appear in one place. At the very least, it's a head turner.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I honestly do not know what you are talking about.

On another topic, your E93 Matty looks trimmed. And it sucks, too. Because I am empathetic to your plight, I am willing to take it off your hands for the SMR price.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Main Entry: un·bi·ased
Pronunciation: "&n-'bI-&st
Function: adjective

1 : free from bias; especially : free from all prejudice and favoritism : eminently fair <an unbiased opinion>.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Oh. Okay.

-Al

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

"My understanding...and please correct me if I am wrong:

A hoard of desired and valuable cards show up, virtually out of nowhere. Previously only three graded (known?) and were all hand cut. Now an auction company who admittedly alters cards and is under investigation by the FBI is selling them. They were sent to SGC but not graded(?), where each were deemed factory cut based on an article their boss (let’s not go there) wrote.

Wasn't trying to spread fear.

I said "correct me if I am wrong"....and you did just that! So now I understand."


Kevin,

Please explain the following?

1. Do you have any evidence that Mastro is being investigated by the FBI (other than O'keefe's article)? If so, what specifically are they being investigated for? Coin gate? etc...

2. Doug Allen admitted to preparing cards under the guidelines of tier "1" which SGC defined as "not alteration" and or not detectable. So are you saying that Mastro Alter's cards beyond tier "1" or are you just finding fault with SGC's definition of alteration? If so, do you think you are more qualified than SGC to define "alteration"?

3. Are you suggesting that SGC is not qualified to grade these cards because of the article written in SGC magazine? Or is there some other conflict of interest that exists that you are implying? Do you believe that SGC graded these cards for Mastro, knowing full well they are trimmed or hand-cut? You did assert in another previously thread that the cards were indeed trimmed or hand-cut. I think you said to stay way away from this lot? Do you believe they are qualified enough to grade these cards or do you think they need to spend some time looking over your shoulder?

4. Lastly, please explain what you mean by (lets not go there)?


Thank you

CB


edited for spelling

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
The thread you started was only the most recent of several. I have no problem with genuine pursuit of knowledge and I did not have you in mind with my comment. I am speaking more generally of the tone of the board. But I would rather not have this spin into another 300 post thread so if it heads in that direction, I will bow out.
JimB

edited for grammar (for Barry )

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Posted By: Anonymous

Does anyone know if Edgar W-T had any Pirate backed baseball cards in his collection?

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Posted By: barrysloate

This won't reach 300 posts- 250 tops!

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Posted By: Paul

Just to be clear, I wasn't bashing. I just think it would be interesting to hear how this group was put together.

The Alleghenys were found as a set and kept as a set (for awhile). The Alphas were also found as a set and kept as a set (for awhile). After the first time the set was broken up, a single collector tracked them all down and built the set again. An amazing story. I'd like to hear what happened with these Pirates. Why are they so rare compared to the Pirate cards that picture Chinese people on the front? And how did almost all of them end up in one place? Richard's explanation is a good start, but it still seems like there should have been a few more smaller hoards outside the US.