Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

As rare as the T206 Joe Doyle NAT'L card is.....there are 11 other Subjects in the T206 issue that are just as rare.

So, what do these 11 very rare T206's have in common with the Joe Doyle error ? They all have PIEDMONT 350 backs.

These 150/350 subjects....as 150 cards....are not tough to find (except for Lundgren-Cubs); but, as 350 cards, they
are virtually impossible to find. After years of sampling 1000's of these 11 Subjects, I have found only 1 or 2 cards of
each with the PIEDMONT 350 back. And, it is significant to note that none have been found with Sweet Caporal 350
or Sovereign 350 backs.






Is this simply a coincidence that these 12 cards are extremely rare and exist with PIEDMONT 350 backs ? I do not
think so.....my speculation is that the Joe Doyle (NAT'L) and these 11 cards were on the same sheet.....And, that
when Quality Control quickly discovered the Joe Doyle error, American Lithograph discarded virtually all of the re-
maining sheets. Thereby, also rendering these 11 cards to become ASP (abreviated-short-prints).

These 11 cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs should command a substantial premium in the hobby......

Conroy (fielding)
Dahlen (Boston)
Ewing
Ganley
Tom Jones
Karger
Lindaman
Lundgren (Cubs)
Mullin (throwing)
Pastorius
Schulte (front view)....No PIEDMONT 350 has been confirmed....may be a 150-only card ?


Incidently, these 11 are also found with HINDU or El Principe de Gales....but, are seldom seen.

Anyhow, if any Net54er's have any of these 11 cards with Piedmont 350....Sovereign 350....Sweet Caporal 350 backs,
please respond....your inputs will be greatly appreciated ?





TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Drew

Ted
Here are my cousins.

Conroy P150 (2)
Dahlen Sov 150 SC150 P150
Ewing P150 (2)
Ganley SC150 P150
Jones SC150 P150 Hindu
Karger SC150 P150
Lindaman SC150 P150
Lundgren P150 (2)
Mullin P350 EPDG
Pastorius SC150 P150
Schulte P150 (2)


Drew

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Only 150s for me.

Notable, though, is that I have a Dahlen, Boston with a Hindu back. Any idea how "rarely" seen this card is with this back?

Mike (18colt)

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your inputs.

Brown HINDU backs on these 11 cards are tough....and so are El Principe de Gales backs.

However, neither of these backs approach the scarcity of the Piedmont 350 back on these 11 cards. It
took me several years of scanning approximately 2000 cards of these 11 Subjects to find 7 of them with
Piedmont 350 backs.

I'm still missing....Conroy....Tom Jones....Karger....Schulte

And, I am skeptical that Schulte was ever printed with a Piedmont 350 back.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Ted,

Here are a few of mine, I have Ewing and Karger I believe in 350, I’ll look for scans didn’t always scan front and back on them all. But my checklist says I have them, I remember seeing Jones somewhere eBay etc. after an auction ended.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ralph

Great post & very informative.Thanks Ted for sharing this as it all makes sense.As I said in another post the Doyle Printing dot should be considered part of the doyle boo-boo card & should command a higher value.Does the dot card lower the value of the Doyle error card?That's the question I ask but before I answer I'll need to give it more thought.Just my 2 cents

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOHN W

The Tom Jones (Piedmont 350), that I believe you are referring to was on ebay about 1 1/2 years ago and Brian Weisner won it.
I have not seen one since.

Thanks for showing your Lindy's....I think I have all the possible Lindaman backs.....




TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

RALPH

You bring up two very interesting points regarding the Joe Doyle cards (NAT"L and Printer's Mark version).

I cannot answer this, as I am just a collector who enjoys these cards, and loves to do research on them,
and sometimes will share this research with others.

Some "biggies" in the hobby would be better able to answer your questions regarding the impact on the
$$$$ value of these cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

While you looking for your Ewing and Karger, see if you have a Lundgren (Cubs) with a Piedmont 350 back ?
Lundgren is tough enough with it's normal P 150 back....and, extremely rare with a P 350 or an EPDG back.

Here's my Lundgren cards......




TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: ockday

I have Karger with a Piedmont 350 back

Alan

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

ALAN (ockday)

Thanks for your Karger input.....you really have a very rare T206 card there.

I'm hoping to expand my analysis of these T206's (with Piedmont 350 backs) with this Survey. And, this forum is the best platform
for doing this, since there are so many advanced and knowledgeable T206 collectors on it.

So, how about it....guys and gals....check-out your T206's and see if you have any of these 11 cards with any "350" backs ?

Thanks for your time and effort,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Betty

Ted, Here are my backs of "the cousins"

Conroy Fielding P150
Dahlen Boston SC150 Fact 30
Ewing SC 150 FAct 649 OP
Ganley EPDG
Tom Jones EPDG
Karger SC150 Fact 25
Lindaman P150
Lundgren-Chi P150
Mullin-Throwing P150
Pastorius P150
Schulte-Fr View P150

Betty

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

I have none of these in a 350 currently. I think I remember having a Lindaman a while ago

These cards/backs do seem quite rare.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BETTY

Thanks for your inputs.

Ganley and Tom Jones with EPDG backs are great acquistions, as they are not often seen on these cards.

Regards,
TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Another factor regarding eight of these 150/350 Subjects having negligible representation in the 350 series, is their transitionary
status in the 1909 season....while the T206 guys were planning which players to include in the 350 Series.
I'd be remiss, if I didn't provide this information as possible factors that could have influenced the T206 designers to discontinue
printing these subjects with the assortment of T-brands that are available on all the other cards in this series.


Dahlen........playing career ends (1909)....Manager of Brooklyn (1910); and, is a short-print in 350-only Series

Ewing.........traded from Cinc. to Phila (NL), Jan 1910

Ganley........traded from Wash. to Phila (A's) (May 1909)

T Jones.......traded from St Louis (AL) to Detroit (Aug 1909)

Karger.........traded from Cinc. to Boston (AL), June 1909

Lindaman.....career ends in 1909

Lundgren......reassigned to Minor Leagues in 1909

Pastorius......career ends in 1909


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I just returned from across the pond, so I'll get to the survey when I can. Talk to you soon. Be well Brian


PS I know I have most of these with Hindu's....

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I will start with mine and the inputs that have been received......Date 9-10-07


Player................Piedmont 350......HINDU........EPDG

Conroy (fielding)..............0.............0........... ....0

Dahlen (Boston)...............1.............1............ ..0

Ewing............................1..............0. .............1

Ganley...........................1..............0. .............1

T Jones (St Louis)............0..............1..............1

Karger............................1..............0 ..............0

Lindaman........................2..............2.. ............1

Lundgren (Cubs)..............1..............0.............. 1

Mullin (throw)..................1..............0......... .....1

Pastorius........................1..............0. .............0

Schulte (front)................0..............0........... ...0


Totals............................9............... 4.............6



OK, guys and gals we have us another Survey....flip over these 11 T206's in your set and tell me their T-brand ?

Thanks for your time and effort,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Iggy

I glanced at the old binder and I have one, a Lindaman Piedmont 350. A lower grade example which I possibly would have upgraded at some point, but for some strange reason it now seems really nice. Out of the 11 cards you mentioned I have nine (seven of them Piedmont 150's, one Sweet Caporal 150, and the above mentioned Piedmont 350). Hope that helps!

-Lovely Day, Iggy...

[Archive]

Posted By: Elliot

Ted, I have Dahlen (Bost) and Ganley with a Piedmont 350 back. Great research that you are doing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug Moore

Ted:
I love these discussions, I've learned a great deal about my T206 set.
I have a Karger with a EPDG back.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I have the following to add to the list:

Hindu's:
Conroy
Dahlen
Ewing
Ganley
T Jones
Lindaman
Pastorius


Piedmont 350's:
T Jones
Lundgren


Nice thread... Hopefully I will add more when I have a chance to look this weekend. Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks.....BRIAN W.....DOUG.....ELLIOT.....IGGY for all your inputs. They will be tallied in the Updated Survey today.

Also, there is a changing of the "guard" on two of these Piedmont 350 "cousins"....as new inputs have dictated this.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Very interesting inputs posted here and one forum member has emailed me with some very revealing inputs.....namely Conroy and Pastorius
with Sweet Caporal 350 backs. So, this may eliminate these two from being Piedmont 350 (only) "cousins". The only Piedmont 350 back, so
far, identified on Pastorius is mine. And, I think Scot Reader has a Conroy (fielding) with a Piedmont 350 back.

I will substitute these two with a couple of "bench-warmers"....Ames (hands/chest) and Larry Doyle (throwing). These two cards have been
historically considered as 150/350 Subjects. Scot Reader and I are virtually convinced that these two Subjects are "150-only" cards.....but,
I'll throw them into the mix and let's see if any of you Net54er's can disprove our theory, by reporting either of these 2 cards with 350 backs.




"Cousins" Survey........UPDATED 9-11-07


Player................Piedmont 350......HINDU........EPDG....Sweet Cap 350


Ames (hands/chest).........0.............0..............0

Conroy (fielding)..............0.............1........... ....0..............1

Dahlen (Boston)...............2.............2............ ..0

L Doyle (throwing)............0.............0............. .0

Ewing............................1..............1. .............1

Ganley...........................2..............1. .............1

T Jones (St Louis)............1..............2..............1

Karger............................3..............0 ..............1

Lindaman........................3..............4.. ............1

Lundgren (Cubs)..............3..............0.............. 1

Mullin (throw)..................1..............0......... .....1

Pastorius........................1..............1. .............0..............1

Schulte (front)................0..............0........... ...0


Totals...........................17..............1 2.............7



OK, guys and gals we have us another Survey....flip over these T206's in your set and tell me their T-brand ?

We've gotten off to a good start......Thanks for your time and effort,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob

Ewing = Sov 150
Mullin = SC 150/30

sorry, no rare backs for me

Rob

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Rob....that's fine, thanks for checking out your T206's.


And, 2 "readers" of Net54 have emailed me with their inputs on these cards; they are.....

Karger.....EPDG

Mullin.....Epdg

and, No new Piedmont 350 cards of these 13 subjects.

Thanks everyone....but, I expected more inputs from posters by now. So far, I'm not sure if you are proving my point
by not responding (as you do not have these tougher backs on these cards)........or just not interested ? ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I have both Ames and Doyle with Hindu backs, but neither with Piedmont 350's to my knowledge. I will go through my lesser condition commons over the weekend to make sure. Be well Brian


PS I have seen the Mullin card with a Piedmont 350 back on EBAY, but I'm not sure I saved a scan. Art probably has one...

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I have Conroy (Fielding) with Piedmont 350. Just lucky I guess.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ed McCollum

After the recent sale, don't have it now, but did on July 3, when I scanned it to place on eBay.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

I also have a Conroy SC350, (but it sure isn't a pretty one.)








Ed, Somebody else must have gotten that Ewing. It wasn't me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It never ceases to amaze me on how many HINDU cards you keep coming up with. You must have over a 100 of them ?

Anyhow, I'm willing to bet you the biggest T-bone steak in North Carolina....that you will not come up with Piedmont 350
cards of Ames (hands/chest) or Larry Doyle (throwing).

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM VB

No problem with your Conroy....information matters, condition is immaterial in these surveys.

Thanks everyone for your inputs....I also received inputs via emails and I incorporate all the
data when I upgrade the this Survey.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Darren

I have all in Pied and SC 150's with the addition of
T. Jones (St. Louis) EPDG
V. Lindaman EPDG
Mullin (throw) EPDG

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

"Cousins" Survey........UPDATED 9-13-07


Player................Piedmont 350......HINDU........EPDG....Sweet Cap 350


Ames (hands/chest).........0.............1..............0

Conroy (fielding)..............1.............1........... ....0..............2

Dahlen (Boston)...............3.............3............ ..0

L Doyle (throwing)............0.............1............. .0

Ewing............................1..............1. .............1

Ganley...........................2..............1. .............1

T Jones (St Louis)............1..............2..............2

Karger............................3..............0 ..............2

Lindaman........................3..............4.. ............2

Lundgren (Cubs)..............3..............0.............. 1

Mullin (throw)..................1..............0......... .....3

Pastorius........................2..............2. .............0..............1

Schulte (front)................0..............0........... ...0


Totals...........................20..............1 6............12



OK, guys and gals we have us another Survey....flip over these T206's in your set and tell me their T-brand ?

We've gotten off to a good start......Thanks for your time and effort,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Drew

Hi Ted

My bench warmers.

Ames P150(2)
Doyle P150 SC150





Drew

[Archive]

Posted By: David R

Ted,

I have Karger, Jones and Mullin with EPDG backs.

David

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Hi Ted,
Just got this in.

Thanks for your great research.
Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: Seam

So out of all of the t206 cards in the set which one is the rarest?

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hello Ted and all,

Here's what I have, relative to this:


Ames (hands/chest) SC 350 fac 30

Conroy (fielding) P 150

Dahlen (Boston) SC 150 fac 30

L Doyle (throwing) SC 150 fac 25

Ewing SOV 150

Ganley P 150

T Jones (St Louis) P 150

Karger SC 150 fac 30

Lindaman SOV 150

Lundgren (Cubs) P 150

Mullin (throw) P 150

Pastorius P 150

Schulte (front) P 150


Hope that helps...

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Frank,

Your Ames (HAC) SC 350/30 is the first instance of that subject in the 350 series that has been revealed in the last few years. A quite rare front/back combo!

Given the importance of this find, can you double-check and confirm that your SC 350/30 example is Hands at Chest and not Hands Above?

Thanks.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your inputs....FRANK....RICK....DAVID....DREW....and two emails.


"Cousins" Survey........UPDATED 9-15-07


Player................Piedmont 350......HINDU........EPDG....Sweet Cap 350


Ames (hands/chest).........0.............1..............0

Conroy (fielding)..............1.............1........... ....0..............2

Dahlen (Boston)...............3.............3............ ..0

L Doyle (throwing)............0.............2............. .0

Ewing............................1..............1. .............1

Ganley...........................3..............1. .............1

T Jones (St Louis)............1..............2..............3

Karger............................3..............0 ..............3

Lindaman........................3..............4.. ............2

Lundgren (Cubs)..............4..............0.............. 1

Mullin (throw)..................1..............0......... .....4

Pastorius........................2..............2. .............0..............2

Schulte (front)................0..............0........... ...0


Totals...........................22..............1 7............15



OK, guys and gals we have us another Survey....flip over these T206's in your set and tell me their T-brand ?

We are rolling right along now; and, I appreciate your time and effort....so, don't stop now.

Thanks again, everyone,


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I suspended entering Frank's SC 350 (Ames) input into the Survey......pending his confirmation.

A similar experience was with an emailer, who provided an input of Doyle with an SC 350 back....and, upon a re-check, the emailer realized
he had looked at his Joe Doyle card; instead Larry Doyle.

However, if Frank has an Ames (hands/chest) with SC 350, he has a very rare back that you and I have not seen in at least 200+ samples.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey guys...

I feel like the knight in The Holy Grail... "sorry, sorry, got you all worked up over nothing."

My Ames with his hands at his chest is a Piedmont 150.

The hands over head is the Sov 350, which is quite common.


Forgiveness is begged.

Frank W.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

No problem ole buddy.....once in awhile, we need some excitement here......and, you certainly caused a stir.

You never really know what next will show up with this "Monster" of a BB card set....so, we cannot "discard"
anything.

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich H.

I've got the Dahlen Boston and Tom Jones in Piedmont 350.
I've got all the others in 150's.


Rich Ha

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

Ted,
Another great survey! Here are my cards:

Conroy Fielding SC30 150
Dahlen Boston P150
Ewing P150, SC25 150, SC30 150
Ganley P150, SC30 150
Tom Jones P150, SC30 150
Karger P150, SC30 150
Lindaman Sov150
Lundgren-Chi P150
Mullin-Throwing - EPDG, P150, P350, Sov150, SC25 150, SC30 150
Pastorius P150, SC30 150
Schulte-Fr View SC30 150, P150

Art M.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your inputs....ART M....RICH H....Net54 readers, who emailed me.


"Cousins" Survey........UPDATED 9-17-07


Player................Piedmont 350......HINDU........EPDG....Sweet Cap 350


Ames (hands/chest).........0.............1..............0

Conroy (fielding)..............1.............1........... ....0..............2

Dahlen (Boston)...............4.............3............ ..0

L Doyle (throwing)............0.............2............. .0

Ewing............................1..............1. .............1

Ganley...........................3..............1. .............2

T Jones (St Louis)............2..............2..............3

Karger............................3..............0 ..............4

Lindaman........................3..............4.. ............2

Lundgren (Cubs)..............4..............0.............. 1

Mullin (throw)..................2..............0......... .....5

Pastorius........................2..............2. .............0..............2

Schulte (front)................0..............0........... ...0


Totals...........................25..............1 7............18



OK, guys and gals we have us another Survey....flip over these T206's in your set and tell me their T-brand ?

We are rolling right along now; and, I appreciate your time and effort....so, don't stop now.

Thanks again, everyone,


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Not much help here, Trex, but here's my data:
Ames p150
conroy sc 150/30
dahlen sc 150/30
doyle p150
ewing p150
ganley sc 150/25
jones p150
karger p150
lindaman epdg
lundgren p150
mullin p150
pastorius p150
schulte sc 150/30

great work Ted, as always,

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Ron

Hi Ted,
Sorry for the delay in responding.
I have the Conroy fielding with Piedmont 350 back and
Lindaman with brown hindu back.
The rest are all either sweet cap 150 or Piedmont 150s

Ron

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your inputs....BARRY....RON....and Net54 readers, who emailed me.


"Cousins" Survey........UPDATED 9-18-07


To provide a relative perspective, I've tallied the total number of 150 and 350 inputs in the rightmost column.



Player................Piedmont 350......HINDU........EPDG....Sweet Cap 350....150/350 inputs (total)


Ames (hands/chest).........0.............1..............0..... ..........0..................12

Conroy (fielding)..............2.............1........... ....0..............2..................29

Dahlen (Boston)...............4.............3............ ..0...............0..................31

L Doyle (throwing)............0.............2............. .0...............0..................12

Ewing............................1..............1. .............1...............0..................27

Ganley...........................3..............1. .............2...............0..................30

T Jones (St Louis)............2..............2..............3. ..............0..................32

Karger............................3..............0 ..............4...............0..................3 1

Lindaman........................3..............5.. ............3...............0..................36

Lundgren (Cubs)..............4..............0.............. 1...............0..................25

Mullin (throw)..................2..............0......... .....5...............0..................33

Pastorius........................2..............2. .............0...............2..................28

Schulte (front)................0..............0........... ...0................0..................20


Totals...........................26.............18 ............19..............4.................346



OK, guys and gals we have us another Survey....flip over these T206's in your set and tell me their T-brand ?

We are rolling right along now; and, I appreciate your time and effort....so, let's have some more inputs ?

Thanks again, everyone,


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Ted,

Beyond the two Pastorius SC350s that have been revealed on this thread, this front/back combo appeared three times in my eBay survey data. So I think Pastorius can safely be removed as a Piedmont 350-only candidate.

I also wonder about the omission of Chance (Red Portrait) from the present survey. I don't recall having ever seen him with any 350 back except Piedmont. Have you?

Scot