Dinner With Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I was fortunate enough to have dinner with Kevin Saucier(and Anthony Nex) in Los Angeles last week. Kevin seems to be pushing forward with his idea of a "seal of approval" on graded cards. A significant if not substantial collector is paying Kevin on a per day basis(or at least willing to pay him on a per day basis)to come to his house and go through as many of his already graded cards as he can. I know who it is but will let him disclose.
My intention is that as a condition of purchase on any "expensive" card I buy that I have doubts about, to make the purchase contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval. I am not having him go through my already graded cards.
I was also given a nice gift by Kevin--a T206 Back with a flip with my name on it, my birth date year and a real Honus cert number(I think).
Thank God Kevin has not crossed to the dark side although he did say he is inundated with requests from people to teach them what he knows.
Don't mean to neglect Anthony who is the one of the very best people I have ever met in the hobby. Three ex-LTSers at one dinner! Don't think I am giving away anything confidential by saying they both were down on what is happening with the grading companies.
A lot more but I will stop there.

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Posted By: Brian

Both Anthony and Kevin are top notch human beings.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I think Kevin must have god-like qualities.

Three ex-LTSers? We all know what LTS is. Actually, I know what LTS is, I was denied membership to that exclusive group. Didn't quite pass muster for that one.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think what Kevin is doing is admirable, and I hope he can turn it into a successful endeavor.

But of course this will raise a lot of questions, so let me get the ball rolling: SGC encapsulates a card and says it's good. Kevin looks at the card and says it's bad.

Why must we assume Kevin is right and SGC is wrong?

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Okay, I'll bite. What the hell is LTS. I have seen that acronym thrown around in the past, but have never been privy to the info on this group (and frankly never cared until Eric's post roused my interest).

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Eric,

I wouldn't sweat it--I believe Anthony and Kevin quit the board. I on the other hand got in an argument with the president band was thrown off. This was a few months after I had resigned voluntarily.

Bruce,

LTS stants for Lets Talk Sportscards-a members only message board founded by Tom Papa who after I got removed from the CU message boards founded LTS to give me a place to post(true story). I then had a falling out with Papa--quit once and was later kicked off. Both Al Crisafulli who posts here and Anthony are past presidents of LTS.

Barry,

I am not saying we should. I am just paying someone for a second opinion because I believe SGC and PSA can make mistakes.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Everybody makes mistakes- even Kevin probably makes one once in awhile. But I have a problem with this scenario, one we've already discussed.

If a consignor asks me to auction an expensive card, and it is slabbed by SGC (who I respect the most), and the winning bidder gives it to Kevin, who then says he thinks it might be bad, and then the buyer wants to return it to me- I have more of a headache than I think I am willing to deal with.

And what do I tell my consignor? Would Kevin remove the card from the holder to examine it carefully? Do I then have to tell my consignor not only is he getting his card back, but to make matters worse, he's getting it back raw?

Don't mean to be a pain in the butt, just trying to cover all my bases.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I repeat my point from the prior thread. Without taking a card out of a holder your ability to detect alterations, particularly trimming, is severely limited. I believe even Kevin acknowedges this.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

A message board that has presidents? Sounds pretty lame.

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Posted By: Brian

I agree Jeff. 80% of that concept is 50% lame.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

People can come up with statistics to prove anything. 45% of all people know that.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Who are these elitists anyhow?

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Posted By: John Basilone

I'll take a good old-fashioned dictator over a president any day!

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Posted By: Brian

A significant if not substantial part of me agrees with you Jeff.

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Posted By: Jason L

Here I thought I was going to hear about the meal, the wine, the candlelight mood,...and we got none of that!

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Posted By: David Vargha

LTS is filled with malcontents, ne'er-do-wells and losers. In fact, just under half of the members over there are below average, even as far as that board is concerned. Besides, aren't Nex and Crisafulli Socialists? Those kind of people don't come to power as "presidents" but more often than not as dictators for life.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Brian

Woman: Oh. How do you do?

King Arthur: How do you do, good lady? I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Whose castle is that?

Woman: King of the who?

King Arthur: King of the Britons.

Woman: Who are the Britons?

King Arthur: Well, we all are. We are all Britons. And I am your king.

Woman: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

Dennis: You'rw foolin' yourself! We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working class...

Woman: Oh, there you go bringing class into it again.

Dennis: Well, that's what it's all about! If only people would...

King Arthur: Please, please, good people, I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?

Woman: No one lives there.

King Arthur: Then who is your lord?

Woman: We don't have a lord.

Dennis: I told you, we're an anarco-sydicalist commune. We take it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week...

King Arthur: Yes...

Dennis: ...but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting...

King Arthur: Yes I see...

Dennis: ...by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs...

King Arthur: Be quiet!

Dennis: ...but by a two thirds majority in the case of...

King Arthur: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

Woman: Order, eh? Who does he think he is?

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Posted By: Cobby33

The Yellow Hoard...The Red Menace. All wrapped up in one.

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Posted By: David Vargha

The Yellow Hoard...The Red Menace. All wrapped up in one.

The Orange Crush?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Cobby33

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Posted By: Joe D.

Anthony Nex is one of the nicest and coolest guys I have had the chance to correspond with in this hobby.

I am amazed at the stuff Kevin posts. Always very informative.

And ever since Jim C. got a scanner... I have loved his posts


Sounds like you guys had a great dinner.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I concur with Joe D. Anthony Nex is TOP SHELF. Period. I don't know nor have I ever conversed with Kevin, but he seems to know his stuff and I would think SGC or PSA would be lucky to get his services....not too sure about a seal of approval on a graded card though because I think it will create a headache for guys like Barry who run auction houses.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

We had a great time at dinner! As many already know Anthony is one of the best in the hobby, has terrific family and is a good friend. It was a pleasure to finally meet Jim. He is quite a nice guy, far from what many perceive him as and "very good" natured. Just wish they both weren’t so damn tall.

Jim’s welcome gift was a blank front & back t206 with a custom made (almost perfect) flip showing his name, the year he was born and the card number was his birthday, a Mint 9, 1953 Topps #528. Thought it would be a cool ice breaker, plus it is something money can’t buy!

The idea of verifying a card was not mine but was a suggestion made by a few collectors...Jim being one of them. Not exactly sure how it will work yet but it won’t be for everyone. Just like grading was not in the beginning and in some cases is still not for many.

The concept is such that if there is any doubt that a card is altered or, in some cases cannot be adequately examined, it will not get a "verified unaltered" hologram. If for any reason this is the case, an opinion based on objective findings will be given. It will not be cracked out.

Grading companies are making mistakes which seem to be happening more frequently then some would like it. Many have also lost the trust of a few auctions houses...wonder why? Although it’s been said I have God-like qualities (LOL), I am human and will also make mistakes...just fewer of them IMO because I am spending much more time and have a good understanding of what to look for. Keep in mind this is not grading.

It’s not too often where a card is too tight in the holder where an opinion cannot be rendered. Granted it is a helluva’ lot easier raw, which is why it takes so long to inspect a graded card, from 10-15 minutes each or more. I’ve spent an hour a few times before just the right light, angle and magnification all came together. As an example here is a recently detected altered card that took a long time to inspect. It was found to have a "repaired" tear, not to mention a trimmed edge and a glued corner tip all in a graded 6 slab:



Sure, this can be argued all day long with pro’s and con’s. Like I said, it will not be for everyone. It’s a service that I can provide for those who want it. I don’t know how it will work out for auctions but hope it will help rather than hurt. Keep in mind this is still in the investigative stages. Here is what I have so far:




Many have questioned my credentials or the fact that I am not a paid professional. I don’t know of any credentials that anyone has in this hobby other than experience. Granted, I don't have a JD or a long history of selling doctored cards. I do have several well known collectors that trust my opinion, openly considered an expert in alterations and identification by Mike Baker and a sportscard writer along with some awesome supporting comments from a nameless person at SGC and a former grader. Others may soon join in. If many don’t feel the same, well that’s alright too


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

I am quite proud to admit that I was the first person to ask to have my membership withdrawn from that Lets Talk Sportscards group, LTS (within 72 hours of its inception - LOL!). Although there were and maybe still are a few classy people on that board, the whole idea that some people are worthy to be a part of our "secret elite society" and some aren't for the pettiest reasons imaginable turned my stomach to no end. Even the invitation by the founder to join was a slap in the face. He basically told me, "If I had my way, I wouldn't have you as a member but several people like Wayne Ellis and David Vargha insisted that you should be a part of our group."

Besides the issue that "Scumbag Dealer W", "Sleezy Dealer X" and "Obnoxious Collector Y" were welcome and adored active members while "Knowledgable and High Integrity Collector Z" was shunned from membership over a petty matter, the smug arrogance, the overt hypocrisy, the juvenile tirades, the rampant profanity and the malicious, and unchecked gossip made it an easy decision to quit. In short, for those who were never asked to join, or never heard of it, you aren't missing a thing.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

(Even the invitation by the founder to join was a slap in the face. He basically told me, "If I had my way, I wouldn't have you as a member but several people like Wayne Ellis and David Vargha insisted that you should be a part of our group.")



I still feel that way. Listening to Vargha has always been an idiotic thing to do.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"...the smug arrogance, the overt hypocrisy, the juvenile tirades, the rampant profanity and the malicious..."

aren't you talking about Net54?

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Posted By: Marc S.

Of the numerous dozens of people that are currently on, or have passed through LTS, it's my sincere belief that your views represent less than 1% of the past and present members.

~marc

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Posted By: barrysloate

I never heard of LTS before this thread, so of course I have no opinion.

But an elitist chatboard that only lets members in on approval wouldn't be my cup of tea.

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Posted By: sagard

God forbid people disagree with moderators and start their own board. Sometimes it works and enough people join to make it interested, other times it dries up due to lack of interest. These type of splits have been going on since the Internets first days with the news groups.

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Posted By: Paul S

I'm surprised I'm the first to quote the Groucho Marx line: "I wouldn't belong to any group that would have someone like me as a member."

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Posted By: Neal Kane

or is it gravy? I prefer a meatless sauce/gravy with a hint of garlic. No chunks either.

also

Does the Pope collect cards and if so would he have them graded? Would he prefer frozen pizza or a burger?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Paul- as I was walking around doing my errands, that's the line I thought of and I was going to post it when I returned. But you beat me to it. Groucho also had another line:

"I'd like to join a club and beat you over the head with it."

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Posted By: David Vargha

Listening to Vargha has always been an idiotic thing to do.

First damn thing on this thread that's made any sense so far . . .

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Anonymous

LTS? Sounds like more of a subversive organization to me.


Then again Net54? Why the 54? Perhaps someone who is familiar with numerology and the occult could answer this one.

42 I can understand. That, after all is the answer to everything.

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Posted By: Anonymous

"The concept is such that if there is any doubt that a card is altered or, in some cases cannot be adequately examined, it will not get a "verified unaltered" hologram. If for any reason this is the case, an opinion based on objective findings will be given."

So the TPGs verify a card as unaltered and Kevin verifies the verification as unaltered (or not). So my question is: who verifies that Kevin is unaltered? Believe me, Kevin is a dear friend - this is a legitimate concern.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I think what Jim C. and Kevin S. are doing for the hobby is a good thing and I applaud their efforts. At least they are trying to do something about the problems and not just talking about it.

On the LTS thing, I believe I was rejected not because they didn't like me, but because they didn't know who I was. I apologize if I violated any confidence by bringing that up. But then Jim C. was the one who mentioned LTS first, so I felt justified in talking about it.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Honestly, getting all bunged up about a private chat board some fellow collectors have...you guys need a hooker and a screwdriver, stat.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

LTS sounds like the masonic temple of card collecting. Is there a ceremony and hazing to gain membership?

I am sure as everything it is good for some and not for others. Once again I see bashing done by some hiding there name, why don't you have the balls to put your name when bashing? Hell it doesn't even take balls get a matter of typing your name and standing behind what you are writing.

Lee

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Posted By: Andrew

Many who bash the exclusiveness would probably join if invited, LTS or other. This of course excludes those on the moral high horse who tout the friendly, on topic, non-combatitive, non-secret (wait, aren't you required to put your name), non-gossipy character of this board. Gosh, I hope I don't need to edit as you'll know that I did (an important thing.)

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: cmoking

========
"The concept is such that if there is any doubt that a card is altered or, in some cases cannot be adequately examined, it will not get a "verified unaltered" hologram. If for any reason this is the case, an opinion based on objective findings will be given."

So the TPGs verify a card as unaltered and Kevin verifies the verification as unaltered (or not). So my question is: who verifies that Kevin is unaltered? Believe me, Kevin is a dear friend - this is a legitimate concern.
==========

IMO, in the end, the question is "who do you trust?" If you trust PSA, no problem, you can be happy and collect PSA cards. I'm sure many people trust PSA (I'm no longer part of that group), including many people with a lot more money than I do. Others trust SGC and cross many of their PSA cards to them. That can be counted as verification of the grade and alteration (or lack thereof).

Kevin's opinion is just that - his opinion. I think people are getting a bit bent out of shape. Its his opinion. You either appreciate it or you don't. I, for one, appreciate his opinion as he's found all sorts of crap on my cards that I would have never seen. That includes cards bought from every auction house (yes, inclduing Barry's).

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Posted By: Kevin Sacuier

"So my question is: who verifies that Kevin is unaltered?"

No brainer, he is obviously trimmed.



For what it's worth I enjoyed my time (3 years?) on LTS and made several good friends there. Many are still there and other have moved on but the friendships are still solid.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

"He is quite a nice guy, far from what many perceive him as and very good natured"

Kevin????--is there really anybody who does not think I am a nice guy and good natured--I'm stunned.

Actually for those not aware, LTS members have been infiltrating this board for some time now--perhaps they are planning a takeover. Actually despite being thrown off I have to disagree with Dan--the vast majority of LTS members are very nice people--there are only a couple of people that I would advise people to stay away from.

I am not aware there is a rule against outing LTS members but on this thread alone there is MorrellMan(current president and dictator)who I think is a very nice guy; Paul Moss(Zardoz) who in his spare time is moderator or maybe even head moderator at the cu boards; Neil Kane who I used to have knock down drag out arguments with but now at least have a cordial relationship with; GoSoxBoSox(Tom Papa) who I know doesn't consider me as a friend but hopefully not as an enemy either; Peter Spaeth whose reputation speaks for itself; John Basilone who has sold me cards and was last seen duking it out with Toppsgun on the SGC boards; Marc Schoenen who is a great guy and a close collecting friend; and David Vargha who is one of the most colorfukl people in the hobby and someone I also consider a collecting friend.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Whoops--I forgot--King is also a member of LTS--a real quality guy if there ever was one.

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Posted By: John S

These holders are going to start looking like travel trunks with all the train stop stickers. I have grown to tolerate the slabs, but this verification of "verified" material is over the top for me. I enjoy collecting too much (and I am not implying that others do not) to get involved. It just removes the enjoyment. Call me a fool, but ultimately I trust my own judgement regarding cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just out of curiosity, why is this LTS board for members only? What is so special about it that you need the co-op board to first give its approval?

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Posted By: David R

If someone wants Kevin to inspect his or her cards and want to pay him to do it (or if he will do it for free), I think that's great. Kevin seems to spot a lot of things that others sometimes miss or maybe care as much about. If others don't see any value in it or trust their own judgment or that of PSA or SGC, that's great too.

If people want to join their own exclusive club for whatever reason (maybe it makes them feel special or they don't like the folks on the public boards or don't want the whole world to see their musings), that's fine too.

I guess it's not unexpected given that we're all adults who are still collecting little pieces of cardboard, but all this bickering about who belongs to what click, why they didn't invite me to join, etc., etc. sounds like those groups of high school or sorority girls that I always found so annoying.

Jim, it sounds like you had a nice dinner and that you think that Kevin can be very helpful to you. I am happy for you.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

So when they talk about you behind your back you are not supposed to know.

Actually, in addition to finding a board I could post on, the initial idea also was that since most if not all initial members were on the CU boards it was hard to say anything anti-PSA. This allows members to blast away to their hearts content.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I nominate Barry Sloate for LTS. Of course I'm not a member, so I don't have that power. But I think if they don't take him, they are idiots.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Eric,

Sorry to break the news to you but they rejected you because they didn't like you:(

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- the smiley face has the parenthesis going the other way

Eric- thanks, but one board takes up enough of my time, and I feel right at home here.