Jim Crandell's personal thread

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Posted By: BcD

"an experienced grading company"

there are experienced people in grading but lots of new territory has been brought to the surface in the last ten years these companies were not ready for~

BcD

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

easy on the beergut comments Brian-- cuts a little too close to home. You may have a six pack, but I've got a 24 pack--4 sets on tops of each other....oh wait, is it supposed to be muscle? Never mind.

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Posted By: Chris

<<My view for prewar alterations

2-3 through 6--higher volume
7 and above--higher percentage

Postwar--a wash.>>

I don't understand the last part of this statement. With the exception of a few cards per set, I can't see much incentive to alter lower grade postwar cards, but I think it would make more sense to trim modern cards than to restore pre-war cards. The margin for 10's on key rookies or even pre-1980 star cards is still very strong, the cuts are easier to duplicate, most cards wouldn't require much work, and dealers can just relist their rejects raw and recoup their initial investment (or just keep resubmitting). The risk with pre-war cards, especially high grade cards, is much higher because most people assume that a high grade pre-war card is a scam and older cards have more character, meaning they're more likely to be recognized in the grading room if they were previously rejected. Even the most meticulous grader isn't going to recognize an 89 UD Griffey that he rejected a month prior.

I don't claim to know who's doing what and to what degree, but if I were a card doctor I'd focus on post-1972 cards for those reasons.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

That was an absolutely great statement.

All for the good of the hobby, no ulterior motives and Rob loves him and .......he won't listen to Wonka

Tou are reaching God-like status.

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Posted By: Dave F

Jim-

I'm throwing up in my mouth a little.


Dave

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I'm riveted. This thread gets better by the SECOND.

Can we get Frank Wakefield in this thread to talk about grading, please? It's just not complete without him. THIS THREAD NEEDS FRANK WAKEFIELD.

-Al

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

God-like or not, thanks to Kevin (and Jim) for working on the problem. I hope your efforts bear fruit in some way.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I'm waiting for the applesauce dude.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Al--please stay off--we know how you feel.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Kevin, I am not trying to attack you or onything like that but how long exactly have you been involved in pre-war baseball cards? How much experience do you have, and when did you start running your "experiments" on pre-war cards? If we are supposed to hold you up as some sort of gold standard we need more background info.

Interesting that Jim will quote Kevin like what he says can be found in the book of Genesis, but collectors like myself, Barry, Corey, Leon, etc, etc. are told by Jim that he must consult with those with "experience" before he will concede.
-Rhett

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Posted By: John

Jim;

Honestly why do you assume everyone is a nobody but you, the level of arrogance you display is really telling sometimes.

Jim, if you read above I actually say nothing negative about Kevin, I only ask questions which I honestly think are valid. I even compliment the guy on his alteration thread. Yet you both get so defensive which is so odd to me. By the way we’ve seen this movie now like 20 times.

Here’s the plot for those of you who don’t have net 54 Tivo…every couple of months Jim you get on here and fire off shots across the bows of folks. Then you ask the same question over and over that has already been answered. Then folks fire back and you cry and throw a fit like a girl on MTV’s “My Sweet Sixteen”. Then you get all serious and drag Kevin into this acting like some drugged up PR person saying stuff which makes all of us cringe most likely including Kevin. You then proceed to make outlandish claims with little or no evidence short of I heard this from a guy etc. Then Kevin chimes in which generally raises questions because lets face it what Kevin generally chimes in on is controversial to say the least. Then questions are re-directed to Kevin he gets defensive, and you come to his rescue once again making everyone and anyone who doesn’t agree with your view of Kevin out to be a total idiot. Then it all dies we give up and next month its freaking ground hog day again and here’s Jim.

Anyone hear think my comments above to Kevin where out of line?

Also for a guy who says he hates attacks, you basically say above that Rob Lifson wouldn’t take my questions seriously implying that I’m a hobby nobody if you will. That really says a lot about you Jim, and it also must say that you and Rob are pretty tight; for you to speak for him on record if he would listen to me or not.

Besides why would he listen to me I’m just a customer perhaps REA doesn’t need my bids, he can just make it up with you Jim.

John

P.S. Jim if your out to clean this hobby up you may not to alienate and insult ohhhh I don’t….other COLLECTORS! God man hate to see you run for office…I can hear you now oh I don’t these peoples vote.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jim, I can't help it. I want to talk about serious issues, and this is the place to be.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wonka,

You're a lunatic--all I said is I'm glad Kevin doesn't feel he has to answer to you and apparently he feels the same way too. Have no idea what you mean about REA--I don't speak for him. I know he admires Kevin though.

If you have something positive to add please do--if not please go away. We know you don't like me --you say it again and again and again.

Relax.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Al--you do have a good point--carry on

Funny I have one thread and many formerly claimed that either I had multiple threads or I messed up a perfectly good thread yet they can't stay away from this one. Guys you don't like it, ignore it --its easy.

This is for guys like Al who want to talk about serious issues.

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Posted By: John

"All for the good of the hobby, no ulterior motives and Rob loves him and .......he won't listen to Wonka"

Ever heard of interpretation of the written word…what you wrote above can read many ways, however calling me a lunatic well that’s pretty cut and dry.

You know Jim, a nice way to say that would be to say you read me wrong etc…

Take care,

John

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Posted By: JimCrandell

He meaning Kevin. How can I be nice when you carry on like you do--chill!!

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Posted By: John

"How can I be nice when you carry on like you do--chill!!"

Great advice Jim, perhaps you can take a lesson from your own words?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

hate to break this video out on you guys...

but if you watch the whole thing from start to finish, i guarentee it will help to put all of this dumb drama into perspective.

enjoy.


http://video.stumbleupon.com/#p=ithct48cqw

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Posted By: Steve

This thread gave me a headache.


Steve

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Posted By: BcD

hey Kevin....
February 28 2008, 8:41 PM

just wondering,did you ask Rob if he has ever altered a card?
Jim,how about Dave Foreman?

have you men asked them this????
their replies are?

BcD

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

just wondering,did you ask Rob if he has ever altered a card?


Of course not.


Doubt I've ever asked anyone that...usually they tell me first.

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Posted By: BcD

Jim would be expecting you to find out and disclose!
Considering Jim's directness in asking Doug Allen such things why not ask Rob????

And Jim! you want to clear the air so you best ask Dave and post the response here please????

has Dave altered cards????

has Rob Lifson altered cards???

BcD

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Brian: Do you really expect an honest response from anyone? With the grief that Doug Allen has been given, you will never have another dealer or auction house admit to ever have doing anything.

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Posted By: jaxxr

Interesting and entertaining thread.

Kind of wonder why all the fuss over which grade of card gets more "alterations" ANY grade/level card MAY be altered.

There's likely more lower/mid grade older cards out there, so PROBABLY there could be more altered.
The money is greater for altered higher end cards, so PROBABLY more time and effort for altering them.

So what ? Who cares which level or grade is more likely to be "fixed" ?
There is certainly no extreme likelyhood for any one particular grade.
Why any big concern whether Jim's opinion is perfectly correct or not ?

As mentioned prior by Paul, most graded cards are fine, however, we all know there are exceptions, and a few MAY be altered. We should be aware of that potential, and regardless of the card being a 4 or an 8, we should try our best to get original items from reputable people.

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Posted By: BcD

The point was Jim tauts people he knows nothing about!
The point is Jim has no problem asking personal question of people he does not like about card doctoring but won't even ask those he thinks/feels are/have been honest with him.
He wants to expose who is who and who does/did what and yet is biased in who he will consult/expose.

The point is....Jim,all 117 pounds of him,should put some of his suspicion to good use and ask his pals the same questions he asks Doug.

Here's one for ole Jim- I know Doug Jim,Have known him for over 14 years. I stayed at his home for about 10 days while my brand new truck was being repaired as a result of an accident I had with a taxi driver in front of the Sears tower in 1995! I will tell you guys Doug would never personally alter,cut,air brush,dye,slice,dice,trim or otherwise a baseball card! Now tell me Jim,Kevin.....would Rob or Dave have ever done such a thing??? Did you guys ask them??? Do you guys have the unbiased to ask them the same things you want Rick Kohl to respond to??? Come on Jim,Ask Dave and ask Rob and tell us what they say about themselves??? And Jim,you call Wonka a lunatic!( he weighs 230 or so....you 117*-that's funny Jim ) In your opinion(if your too whinish to ask them), do you think Dave Foreman has ever altered a card Jim?? Do you think any of those cards are in your collection if so Jim?? Come on Jim ask all your pals about their habits not just pound on Doug! It gets old Jim and has no bearing on your so called desire to clean up th hobby when you won't even face reality.You might be better off getting a personal trainer and put some time into your work out so your body is at least 1/10th the size of your big mouth Jim! You are....and get old!

BcD

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Posted By: MVSNYC

117 pounds?

guess you haven't met Jim before.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim's a little bigger than 117, but Wonka is most definitely a bruiser!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Barry- John used to be an ultimate fighter in the late '90's...he certainly is a bruiser...

you have to meet his identical twin brother, Maximillion...they were seperated at birth in Scotland...

he's a riot!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Two Wonkas is a little more than I can handle

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Posted By: BcD

my statement was based on that Geeky photo he passed around the internet of him about ten/15 years ago!
What? Does he look like Dorskin now?

BcD


Ultimate Wonka looks like this~

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Posted By: JimB

Rob Lifson posted scans of a 1933 Goudey Lajoie a year or so ago that was mid-grade and altered that someone tried to consign to his auction. While I disagree with most of what Jim Crandall says, I think there is some validity to the notion that card-doctors attempt to move cards from a grade of 3 to a 5 as much as they do from a 6 to an 8. I would imagine the grading companies may be a bit more lax in looking for alterations on a mid-grade card than a potentially nm/mt Cobb. Generally I think that the number of altered cards that slip through either PSA or SGC is extremely small (My guess would be less than 1%), but the notion that there are more attempts to do that at the PSA 8/9 level as opposed to the 3-6 level is naive. Cards that are that sharp set off immediate warning signs, whereas people tend to presume the mid-grade cards are probably fine. If it were so easy to get high-grade cards through, they would not be such condition rarities and demand the premiums they do for those who like them.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

He's north of 117!

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Posted By: BcD

potatoes,carrots,white rice and bananas and macaroons kick in?

does he need to "TRIM" down?
arrrr arrr arrr

BcD

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, I don't want to get too personal here!

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Posted By: BcD

is Jim really Peter Chao?

BcD

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Posted By: John

“so your body is at least 1/10th the size of your big mouth Jim!” LOL BCD

Nah the guy you have to watch out for is Sloate it’s those wirey Brooklyn kids who grew up playing stickball that can really mess you up!

Mike my twin brother says hi, LOL.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Is it really a surprise that there are cards that have been altered and are being altered?

I've been collecting since the 1970's. I was a weekend warrior for about 10 years and was fortunate enough to own or see many incredible cards. My pre-war collection (at least 95% of it) paid for graduate school back when you could buy a t206 EX Cobb for a couple of hundred dollars and caramels were throw-ins) I no longer really am anything other than a very casual collector, there are other things that take up my time and money in life nowadays.

Artwork is not only altered, its outright often counterfeited. Heck a German museum about a week ago found out a 35 MILLION $ painting was a forgery. The Hermitage has a Rembrant that was attacked with a knife and acid - it took about 8 years to restore. If a Rembrant can be restored after acid then baseball cards can be made to look NM.

Personally I liked it when pre 1948 baseball cards were much less popular (and cheaper), but the times have changed and one of the drivers of that change is grading. And lets be straight here - the truth is that there are good graders and bad graders - there is no certification to obtain and its subjective. All of which lends itself to the temptation of altering the cards. Hate to break it to those that collect only high grade but I can tell you that when PSA first started, there were people going around and buying oversided cards of all types (not just pre-war). And they weren't buying them because they had an "oversized" card collection or were studying printing techniques of the early 20 century.

And even before that there were dealers who would openly speak about a card being able to be "made" NM - I can specifically remember a dealer discussing some E92's that I had that had generous borders - they were all about EX with no creases - he was telling me I was crazy for selling them for $10 each when I could "make" them NM and get maybe 20-30. I tried to get him to buy the cards but he wouldn't as "no one wants candy cards..." And over the last several years I can say that I've seen many caramel cards in auctions that are fairly high grades that I believe (not 100% but certainly more than a passing thought) I've seen or handled before and they weren't quite as nice as they are now.

Just as artwork has been altered through the years so have a decent amount of cards and the number will increase. So if you can live with that then buy the high grade pre-war cards, if not buy the books as its much cheaper

And yes I would also add that mid grade cards get altered. I'll never forget a 1933 Goudey Ruth that I bought as part of a collection, looked vg with no creases...but after looking at it several times realized that the right border had been trimmed...and after measuring and further inspection proved myself correct

I collected (and occasionally still look/read) because it was enjoyable....I find it hard to think that this thread and the subject in general is really enjoyable.

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- I can fit comfortably into the left sleeve of your sports jacket.

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

As a sidenote.

I would encourage anyone, especially those that collect to make a visit to St. Petersburg and visit the Hermitage museum. Its really unbelievable and I don't even like art. They have an entire room of Rembrants, entire room of Reubens, statues by Michaelangelo (sure mispelled), Da Vinci's, Van Gogh's on and on and they have tons and tons of it!!

The one negative is the way the stuff is not really protected from the environment - lots of very valuable paintings with no enclosures and sitting next to windows (not exagerating). All kinds of sculptures from BC's and early AD's. And the building itself has some simply incredible rooms as it was originally built as a palace.

No early Russian baseball cards that I saw but well worth the trip once in your lifetime.

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Posted By: Marty Kohler

"BUCS" .....That my friend is one of the most intelligent and accurate posts that I`ve read on this board,...Right on!! Well said!!

GO YARD

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Posted By: BcD

Jim B,what you write makes sense.
it's ludicrous how Blimpy publically calls out people he does not like while circumventing people he has purchased cards from! he won't face the music and ask "All" dealers if they have altered cards! he defames Doug Allen but does not address Bill Mastro or Rob L or Dave Foreman on matters he "claims" concern for.

Sorry Jim, sentiment is not sacrifice! Do the due diligence and get back to us on what the these guys have to say or go away as many are no longer listening!

BcD

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Posted By: Aaron Patton

...what ever happened to ole Peter Chao?

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Posted By: DMcD

Last I heard he was doing a radio show with Jeff L.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Peter C. and Jim C. aren't the same person?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Spent Three and a Half Hours Today at the Reading Show--had a lot of interesting conversations and bought some neat cards.

1)First and I guess most importantly I bought my first SGC cards ever--all vintage golf. Four Bobby Jones cards--1926 Lambert & Butler(SGC 96),1927 British American(SGC 88),1927 Churchman's Small(SGC 88) and 1927 Churchman's Large(SGC 84).Thanks to Mike Dobrynio as I start my move into vintage golf.

2)Aside from this transaction(which was prearranged) I didn't find too much I needed--5 Basketball 1971 Topps Trios from my friend Andy Madec and a 67 Kahn card I needed.

3)Sat down with Doug Allen who made a passionate defense of his integrity and said he would never alter a card and would fire anyone who did. He called his taking out a light crease comment a poor choice of wording, said he was talking about wrinkles, got into a discussion of applying pressure versus undo pressure on a card and I think told me that applying pressure was okay. He said he has written a two page explanation of his practices which he was going to post here. I would buy cards from Mastronet but probably not expensive cards unless they gave me the option of showing them to Kevin first.

4)Speaking of showing cards to Kevin first, in speaking with my friend Bill Goodwin he said any cards I wanted to buy could be run through Kevin--absolutely no problem--not sure he was referring to cards on auction or just those for sale.

5)Had a long talk with Dave Forman who was of course delighted to see I had bought 4 SGC cards and even more delighted to hear I would be collecting all my vintage golf in SGC--at least to thec extent possible. Biggest smile I have ever seen on him. Dave said that February was his best month ever and was optimistic March would be equally good. He did not attribute it to PSA's half grade policy change. He was of course delighted to have Derek Grady working for him full time.

6)Gave my first batch of cards to PSA for a review. My 1963 Fleer set(67 psa 8s). All the chatter around the show was how difficult getting the 8.5s were.

7)Aside from the gentlemen mentioned I chatted with Ted Z who is a delightful guy, Joe Tauriello from Set Builders who is a very nice man. met the famous Bruce Dorskind, spoke with long-time dealer Wayne Varner who bemoaned the fact(also mentioned by others) of how difficult it is to obtain high-grade vintage cards, long time friend Peter Lalos(Champs and Bums) who said he was getting more and more into non-sports. Among others I said hello to were JP Cohen, Brian Drent, Locker Room guy and a few others who I am forgetting.

8)The only unpleasant thing was seeing Alan Rosen standing by the entrance looking to grab anyone who looked like they may be selling cards--yuck.

Overall, a great way to spend half a day.

Jim

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Now this thread officially goes into the Hall of Fame.

-Al

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Posted By: Aaron Patton

...does putting this in the HOF...mean all Jim's cards will go up?

Peter??

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Posted By: leon

Whomever the person was that logged in as Peter C got banned (again?) and his post deleted.....anyone that is banned, or is an anonymous troll, will have their post deleted and be banned immediately.....For the record I never had that much of an issue with him...I had much more issue with a few others...regards

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Posted By: Bob

First time on this thread. Just wondering why no one has commented on the video link that was submitted about 10 posts ago. I watched it but almost turned it off when I saw Oprah (she is only on for about 15 seconds before the dying man's lecture. Truly amazing. Hope others watch it.
Jim- Say what you want about John (Wonka) he is a helluva nice guy and has never posted an arrogant post or belittled anyone other than those whose balloon's needed a little puncturing. I think this whole thing comes down to the old "armpit of the hobby" issue. There are some very nice guys who are Registry guys and collect the highest grade of cards but if I want to share a beer or talk about the hobby, give me a vg guy any day. Some of us have collections a helluva lot nicer than you think....

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

Jim,

I'm glad to hear the Reading show was worth the trip.

Now, I have a question for you Jim. Do you keep track of everyone transaction you make, such as recording them on an Excel Spreadsheet like I do - documenting the price paid and from whom?