Uncovered the mysteries of T206museum and OM black overprint backs

barrysloate · #1 05-10-2009, 11:34 AM

Here's what really scares me about this whole mess:

I've always wondered if the technology to counterfeit a tobacco era card was possible; could one find paper, ink, and printing plates, for example, to reproduce a T206 and get it past a grader? And the answer was always that it would be impossible to do as it would be readily detected.

Now, with this overprint back getting holdered, as well as a couple of E94 overprints being encapsulated, the wall has been broken. What's stopping someone from creating nearly foolproof Old Puts, or taking a blank backed card such as M101-4/5, and creating a new back variation that no one has ever seen before? If the technology is good enough and it passes the grading test, then who knows what troubles lie ahead.

This could be one of the biggest dangers the vintage card market has ever faced.

Mark · #2 05-10-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's what really scares me about this whole mess:

I've always wondered if the technology to counterfeit a tobacco era card was possible; could one find paper, ink, and printing plates, for example, to reproduce a T206 and get it past a grader? And the answer was always that it would be impossible to do as it would be readily detected.

Now, with this overprint back getting holdered, as well as a couple of E94 overprints being encapsulated, the wall has been broken. What's stopping someone from creating nearly foolproof Old Puts, or taking a blank backed card such as M101-4/5, and creating a new back variation that no one has ever seen before? If the technology is good enough and it passes the grading test, then who knows what troubles lie ahead.

This could be one of the biggest dangers the vintage card market has ever faced.

Sounds plausible to me. The only authentic backs will be those that were known to exist prior to new age printing techniques. If this is truly a danger, starting now you type card dudes should buy your Altoona Tribunes and Holmes to Homes and Gimbels cards in holders that were slabbed and numbered a few years ago.

rdwyer · #3 05-10-2009, 11:59 AM

Yes, I robbed a bank. I did it for enjoyment and showmanship. I wanted to remain anonymous because I didn't want anyone asking me for loans. The money was burning a hole in my pocket, that's why I spent it. (Being sarcastic)

For years, I relied on T206museum for information. Now, I have a hard time believing anything that was on the site. I hope this con-artist goes to prison.

bijoem · #4 05-10-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I've always wondered if the technology to counterfeit a tobacco era card was possible; could one find paper, ink, and printing plates, for example, to reproduce a T206 and get it past a grader? And the answer was always that it would be impossible to do as it would be readily detected.

Barry - in my opinion..... it is absolutely possible.

Jim VB · #5 05-10-2009, 12:32 PM

I've been told, often in my life, that my biggest character flaw is that, on some days, I have an unflinching intolerance to ignorance and stupidity.

I guess today is just another one of those days. I'm willing to cut this guy zero slack, apology or not. I want him to go away.

cfc1909 · #6 05-10-2009, 12:36 PM

Pat

this is all very disturbing to me. T206 is my passion and after collecting for many years, I have become very knowledgable about the set. T206 Museum has some good info but it also insults my intelligence. I want to talk to you and not by email. I will be calling you.

JR

barrysloate · #7 05-10-2009, 12:42 PM

Joe- since you are a printer you would know better than most what could be done with a printing press and the right paper and ink. I guess we may start to see it down the road.

If Mr. Chan could fabricate an Old Mill overprint, I assume it would not be too hard to add a couple of letters to a Joe Doyle T206.

marvjung · #8 05-10-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Joe- since you are a printer you would know better than most what could be done with a printing press and the right paper and ink. I guess we may start to see it down the road.

If Mr. Chan could fabricate an Old Mill overprint, I assume it would not be too hard to add a couple of letters to a Joe Doyle T206.

Being a spanking new collector to the T field, before I started to collect this stuff, I was thinking exactly what Barry had written above in his two previous threads. The volume of fake material being passed off as real is...well...unnerving for me. I believe the ability to "create" authentic-looking T206's is rapidly approaching, if not here already; this is the greatest reason why I view the forums a few times a day - the combined knowledge of the people on this board, accompanied with the pictures and thoughts, helps me truly understand and get the "feel" for the T-series and helps me make decisions on my purchases. (In fact, there's a Cy Young on Ebay being sold as authentic, but I damn well know it's not - all due to this board).

This is also why I have yet to grade any of my cards; I've kept them raw and I'll probably keep it that way; unless PSA or SGC comes up with an entirely DIFFERENT department based on vintage material, and they are transparent in their grading process, including identifying who's doing the grading, I plan on keeping my cards raw for as long as possible.

As for Mr. Chan....first of all, you have guts to come on to this board, with people that have more knowledge than the Library of Congress about T series to apologize - I'll give you props for that - knowing full well you're about to get about 100 pages of flames. Whatever; no sympathy from me. I love the T-series too, but not crazy over it and it certainly isn't my only form of income (I've never sold a single T-series and I won't; I'm a pure buyer). I'll make it short - I don't like people like you. Makes people like me, and others on this board, to be even more vigilant than ever.

So, I'll say it the way someone from 'da hood would say it...."STFU, save whatever credibility you MIGHT have, and don't come back."

PS - sorry, it just burns me up thinking all the money I spent, staring at my cards, thinking I got scammed. Mr. Chan, you're the reason why some people WON'T collect vintage stuff. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr..........

rdwyer · #9 05-10-2009, 01:23 PM

oops

rdwyer · #10 05-10-2009, 01:23 PM

This story should go national. If someone wants to, do it here:

digg.com/submit

From there, it will eventually hit all the local news networks.

Jim VB · #11 05-10-2009, 01:34 PM

If only O'Keefee hated T cards...

jmk59 · #12 05-10-2009, 01:45 PM

I'd characterize my reading of the explanation as highly skeptical up until I got to the point about consigning to REA to "complete" the auction. What? That was the credibility-point-of-no-return for me.

I can see making them for fun to see if you can do it. I can also see showing them off online, to see if anyone catches on. I can even see getting them graded, again to see if the job is good enough to fool a professional looking at it in person specifically to identify additions and alterations.

But the second you took or attempted to take a dime for one, all fun and challenge and testing of the system was off, and you became a common crook.

Joann

Matt · #13 05-10-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If Mr. Chan could fabricate an Old Mill overprint, I assume it would not be too hard to add a couple of letters to a Joe Doyle T206.

Barry - didn't this happen already with the PSA Doyle in their book of 100 greatest sports cards?

Dalkiel · #14 05-10-2009, 01:02 PM

bond73 = Manny Ramirez???

danmckee · #15 05-10-2009, 02:41 PM

Complete bogus garbage. Let's see how many blue gills get hooked by this bait. Chan is dirty, shilled auctions in the past and nothing he says here can make what he did ok.

He did what he did for one reason and one reason only!

To deceive and steal. And when you are caught stealing you should be punished!

I like the bank robbery comparison. If i pay back if i am caught should i walk????

Sorry pat, i have known you too long and you may win over a few saps but you are pure garbage to me and those packs have no chance of holding baseball cards unless you put them in there.

Just my call but i am calling bs on this one.

Sincerely, dan mckee

wonkaticket · #16 05-10-2009, 03:54 PM

Pat,

I have had the liberty of reading many of your private emails in which the lies and deception are as thick as syrup.

This was planned from day one and if the heat hadn�t come the card would have sold in REA you would have used your balance to buy lots in REA. You would have made a trade me with me on the Lipe once we baited you with some great cards from our respective collections. You also would have continued to lie to the owners of the Hart card as you did so many times before.

The only reason you have remorse is the jig is up and you�ve been caught. Like all criminals you feel bad when you get caught.

My advice keep that $206 dollars and put it towards attorney�s fees.

$206 dollars really!

You scam the collecting community for years use this board to hype BS items and services under an assumed name, hint at shilling major auctions and screw collectors out of tens of thousands of dollars. You have collectors trade away their prized possessions for fake cards you made with a rubber stamp to build a collection for yourself on basically stolen material.

And $206 is the number you come up with? Well I guess we are breaking stereotypes here on Net54 I guess not all Asian Americans are good at math I stand corrected.

My favorite line of yours in one of your emails is that you didn�t have access to your collection right now to trade some of those cards back...just like a pirate and a thief you want to hold on to all those great cards your ill gotten booty if you will that you managed to scam from innocent collectors.

Do us and yourself a favor kill the site and disappear into anonymity once again you had no problem being an anonymous before try it again this time without robbing people for you own enjoyment or gain.

P.S. One little word of advice while your dishing out thanks to folks you may want to thank that FBI agent for allowing you to work this out this way�biggest favor you have ever been given!

wonkaticket · #17 05-10-2009, 04:04 PM

"Perhaps I am a little naive but I thought most collectors knew they were altered. I saw them on the t206museum was immediately suspicious and never really followed them. Considered it somewhat of a joke and a no-brainer. Feel the same about most of the stamped backed cards. Just "way" too easy to do!"

"Now that I read the stories I am shocked to find that collectors were spending serious money these overprints. Hope they all get their money back."

Kevin Saucier

www.AlteredCards.com - Kevin, "In this field I have found time and time again that if you're trying to do something good, and some people don't like it, you're probably doing something really great and important!" - Rob Lifson

I guess Jim, Dan, FBI, Rob and I wasted a bunch or our time seems Kevin knew all along....

Silly us.

calvindog · #18 05-10-2009, 04:06 PM

Is there someplace I can find a Kevin-blessed 150K underprint?

Marc Simmons · #19 05-10-2009, 04:21 PM

Barry, I think we may have already seen a counterfeit act of creating a 'new back variation' - the glossy Ty Cobb "Ty Cobb, King of the Tobacco World" back. Just that nobody knows for sure?

Wite3 · #20 05-10-2009, 04:34 PM

It has happened other times too...Kendig chocolate backs come to mind...

Joshua

barrysloate · #21 05-10-2009, 05:04 PM

Yes, there are many bad T206 Doyles out there, and I am certain this is not the last instance of counterfeiting we will see with vintage cards. There are more out there, no doubt.

Adam · #22 05-10-2009, 05:38 PM

This was pointed out in a prior post:

The Drum pouch on T206museum.com was the SAME one that "800hitter" is currently selling on eBay:

http://tinyurl.com/red56v

Note how 800hitter stresses the T206 Museum's pricing and findings. For example: "Experts who have analyzed this pouch for the T206 museum Web site have indicated it is highly probable this pouch contains 1 or more t206 or t205 baseball card." . . . "A similar pack -- a GAI 8 Piedmont pack from this same era -- is currently selling on the T206 Museum Web site for $15,000 and a GAI 9.5 is selling for $30,000!!!"

Is 800hitter Patrick's eBay user name?

rdwyer · #23 05-10-2009, 05:52 PM

"The Drum pouch on T206museum.com was the SAME one that "800hitter" is currently selling on eBay"

Not was. Is! The Drum pouch on T206museum.com is the SAME one that "800hitter" is currently selling on eBay.

Someone told me tfever was Patrick Chan's eBay username.

http://profiles.friendster.com/4005719

DJR · #24 05-10-2009, 06:17 PM

.

batsballsbases · #25 05-10-2009, 10:09 PM

Its so sad that these things have to happen but the real reality is as long as there is money to be made on any valuable item the Patrick Chans of the world will continue to thrive as long as there are buyers out there willing to put up big money for rare big ticket items that no one else has. Some will be caught others willnot. A great case in point is the $20 gold St Gaudens Double Eagles. Years past until someone finally figured out that many of them were faked with a small Omega mark on the back. The infamous OMEGA MAN who baffled some of the best experts for years was never caught. If it wasnt for greed it may never have been found out.

joshr90 · #26 05-10-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's what really scares me about this whole mess:

I've always wondered if the technology to counterfeit a tobacco era card was possible; could one find paper, ink, and printing plates, for example, to reproduce a T206 and get it past a grader? And the answer was always that it would be impossible to do as it would be readily detected.

Now, with this overprint back getting holdered, as well as a couple of E94 overprints being encapsulated, the wall has been broken. What's stopping someone from creating nearly foolproof Old Puts, or taking a blank backed card such as M101-4/5, and creating a new back variation that no one has ever seen before? If the technology is good enough and it passes the grading test, then who knows what troubles lie ahead.

This could be one of the biggest dangers the vintage card market has ever faced.

In A World where Corruption and Greed reign Supreme, One grading company Stands Alone.

Fighting for Justice in a world with none left to spare.

This summer, as the biggest, newest scam of the hobby sears into our minds, join our Heroes in the fight against devaluing what we hold dear.

BS grading- Join the Revolution.

Can humanity survive?

Kid's seats still just FIVE BUCKS!

-Josh

danmckee · #27 05-10-2009, 06:32 PM

Come on Barry, you can't be serious??? The fake Nodgrass' the bogus Doyle's and PSA grader at the time Bill Hughes even admitted slabbing the trimmed Wagner.

3rd party grading is a joke amongst hobby veterens.

It was laughed at at the 1991 Aneheim show when PSA first opened and I am still laughing!!!! Orlando is a town clown.

The experts????

I feel very sorry for the people who have invested their trust in 3rd party grading.

A close friend of mine just popped an authentic graded PSA card out and resubmitted and got a 9. His reward will be about $4K. God Bless Him.

Dan Mckee

fkw · #28 05-10-2009, 07:51 PM

Wow!!!

PS. Dan M., did those scans I sent you last month help in this investigation? Hope so, I see they no longer are showing on the older posts from 2005 etc.