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#1
05-10-2009, 09:45 AM
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Uncovered the mysteries of T206museum and OM black overprint backs
(Please excuse of my bad English, if u don't understand what I am trying to say please let me know and I will edit them in a way that everyone would understand. Please bare with me)
Sorry for responding to the mess that I made so late. If you have no clue of what's going on, please read this post first. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112134 I am now stepping out from the shallow to say thank you and apologize to everyone. This is Patrick Chan and the owner of t206museum. First of all, I would like to apologize to the owner+family member(s) of the Hart card. Then, I would like to thank you Jim for winning the Revelle from REA and everyone who have spent their valuable time uncovered the mess and mistake that I made. I have to admit the creation of those Old Mill black overprint backs was a serious mistake and I fully regretted. I am going to uncover the details and hoping I would not cause further damage to the hobby that we all love. Most of all, I am asking forgiveness of the stupid act that I made in the past. I can't change the past but I hope by telling the trust can comfort everyone and answer all those questions that u might have in your mind. Why did I make those black overprints? I created those black overprint backs just for my own enjoyment and showmanship and not for money. How many out there? I have only created four of those black overprint backs: 1, Revelle (it was on REA), 2, Hart (got traded out), 3, Lipe (never left my possession) and 4, Greminger (never left my possession). Why did I encapsulate them? There was a time many collectors bitching about PSA didn't know anything about vintage cards so I decided to submit my creations to PSA and tested how much they know about those overprints and turned out they really didn't know anything about them and that's how they got encapsulated. Such test also did it on SGC and the outcome turned out to be the same. What happen to the Hart? The Hart was the only one (other than Revelle) left my possession after being graded by PSA. About 7 yrs ago, my desperation on collecting t206s completely covered my sane and mind and traded out the Hart for some t206 oddities that I had never seen before. This Hart later got changed hand to another collector which was the current owner of the card (there were only two collectors have ever owned this Hart). What happen to the Lipe? The Lipe had never left my possession after being graded by PSA. It was on eBay solely for showmanship and have received a lot of cash offer and all got turned down. Why did I post the Greminger on t206museum and make it available for sale? First of all, this Greminger had never left my possession after being graded by PSA. Again, I created this double overprint backs only for my enjoyment and showmanship. Showing it on t206museum was to get more publicity of the website. I have no intention selling the Greminger that's why I asked for a ridiculous price knowing no one would willing to pay for. For those of you who have made offer(s) to the Greminger, you should know I was being extremely difficult selling the card. Why did I consign the Revelle to REA? First of all, the Revelle was the only other one that left my possession after being graded by SGC. The reason I consigned it to REA was to make their 2009 auction more "completed" after knowing they would have all t206 "Big 4" available in the same auction (which is something never happened before). It was an extremely stupid mistake on my side since my Revelle is not real and how can my card make their auction more "completed". Where are those cards now? I do NOT own any of them anymore and they are now under the possession of the appropriate authorities. They will eventually be destroyed. Who are the victim? Generally speaking, there's only one collector+his family member(s) got hurt in this mess (at least financially). He is the one who own the Hart. However, such collector has been completely compensated and completely satisfied with the resolution. If you wonder how many other collectors out there got "scammed" by me or how much money I have made in all these. The answer is ZERO. If you have ever scam by me or you think I have ever take your money in a foul play or even take advantage of you in any deals, please feel free to speak up then I can prove myself clean. Why did I create t206museum? I created t206museum.com about 10 yrs ago. The site is solely for information sharing and education. There is no one else in the hobby willing to spend so many time creating a free informative website on one topic. I can guaranteed 99% of the info on my site are real and can refer to multiple sources to backup the information. The 1% of the info that was wrong was the OM black overprint backs and their references. I have no intention of using it as a vehicle to cheat people and those OM black overprint backs were solely for showmanship. What other information on the site are incorrect? Besides the references of the OM black overprint backs, all other information are correct and based on the best of my knowledge. What about those unopened tobacco packs? I can guaranteed all of those Piedmont packs and Drum pouch have never been tampered with. The Piedmont 10 cigs pack can trace down to Mastro auction. The Piedmont 12 cigs pack was one of two packs that I bought from the same source and I did pulled a t206 card from one of them and the other pack remains untouched and available for sale. Since I pulled a t206 from one of them and have reason to believe the other pack would be the same that's why I offer guarantee and full refund on the other Piedmont 12 cigs pack but not the Piedmont 10 cigs pack since I am selling the 10 cigs pack according to Mastro auction description and based on what I learnt about those packs in the past decade. I know many collectors are saying the tax stamp on those packs are not right or they were made in later year etc, I am not sure of all that but I have personally pulled t206 and have proof t206s pulled out from both Piedmont 10 cigs and 12 cigs pack. The graded Drum pouch was sold in a lot less than my asking price early this year you can now find it on eBay. The pack can trace down to last year's CCCP show. Why did I remain anonymous since the beginning? Back then, eBay wasn't as secure as of now, collectors can easily found out who was bidding what and what are their interests. eBay WAS really a fun and cheap place to obtain rare materials or t206 oddities that other collectors might not aware of and in a very cheap price especially. However, a few collectors noticed my interest on t206 oddities and would just blindly followed whatever I bidded on and I ended up paying more than what I would if I used another identity to bid on the very same auction. That's the time I realized remaining anonymous on the Internet could saved me a lot of money and troubles. Another reason was I created t206museum to share information on t206s and try to educate collectors. I have been trying to gather as much t206 information as I can and put them all in one place. I know there are many collectors know t206s more than me but they never shared or willing to share what they know. I created t206museum to share free information but I received criticism of my poor English (I know it is bad and u don't need to remind me) and using other people's articles on my site. I tried to give back credits to the original arthurs if I can find them. I also did try to paraphrase some of the information but ended up still read similar to the original. I am not charging money to use my site and a lot of collectors do find it informative but why do I still need to take those unnecessary criticism for not using perfect English or not having current info on my site. I don't update the site all the time and it is not my full time job neither. I do received correction or update from collectors once a while but I have never received multiple emails (as he claims) from the same collector asking me to correct information which I intentionally ignored or refused to do. Yes, it took me some time to update the site (you don't expect me to update the site 5 mins after u emailed me, do u?). I could be forgetful and didn't give u an update after I made the change but I did eventually corrected the info. Did you go back to the site and check?? Do you guys see my frustration? That's why I prefer to remain anonymous and rather not taking any credits for making the site. Again, I have NO intention to hide my identity for so long and hoping one day I can use my site as a tool to scam collectors. I just do not want to take unnecessary criticism and that's why I shutted down the message board since I don't want to spend 24 hrs monitor the board and scrubbing out bad messages. (I really don't know how Leon can maintain Net54 forums so clean, nice job Leon!!) ...to be continued... Last edited by bond73; 05-10-2009 at 09:51 AM. 
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#2
05-10-2009, 09:46 AM
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Why did I come out and speak for the mistake now?
I come out to speak now just because I want to SAVE your t206 collections/investments and want to stop further damaging the hobby. After reading most of those posts on this forum regards to t206museum, I can feel the direction going to the wrong way. Some collectors starting to feel all of those player image overprints, ghost image, test strips that shown on t206museum were all bogus. I can swear to God I have only made four OM black overprint backs and that's it PERIOD. All those overprints with player's image or tobacco brand on the front or back are real and they were true printer's scrap from a hundred year ago. Collectors have reasons not to buy any printer's scrap from my collection but if this misconception keeps on spreading to the wrong directions then I believe the t206 oddities market would crashed. This is completely unfair to collectors who love and already own those t206 oddities in their collection (are you listening Dan?). Again, all those cards (except OM black overprint) that you read on t206museum are real, they can be traced down to eBay or Mastro auctions. Why did I post in this forum as "bond73"? Again, I don't want to use my real name to promote t206museum. That's why I used "Scott Bob" as an alias to post. I don't want u guys miss out any new info on t206museum. Regards to the last post by "Scott Bob" of "So there are no real t206 overprints, ghost images, miscuts exist? I guess that guy has a printing factory in his basement or something." I was just trying to use a sense of humor hoping someone would step up and say "No, there are real overprints out there but just not those OM black overprints" after I start seeing the whole overprint topic heading to the wrong direction. However, you guys saw my previous post as a remorseful post, anyways, you guys missed my intention and hope you understand now. Will t206museum go online again? For the time being, it will remain unavailable since I have to scrub out the 1% incorrect information about the OM black overprint and review the rest of the 99% information making sure they are current, accurate and reflect new information from new discovery etc. I hope the future t206museum can continue serving and educate collectors on t206s in the future. I have helped hundreds of people on t206 questions in the past and hoping to continuously serve collectors again in the future. (By the way, I really need someone to proofreading my crappy English, any volunteer?) To start out from stop further hurting our beloved hobby and continue doing good thing for the community. I will donate $206 next month to any charity or foundation of board member's choice. It will be donated under the name of Net54baseball Forums. Thank you for Robert Lifson encourages me to speak up. I am asking forgiveness from all of you. I am deeply sorry and regret of the stupid act that I have done in the past. I can't change the past but I hope I can use my extensive knowledge on t206s to educate more people in the future and make them love this hobby and make the collecting world a better place. If anyone has further questions, let me know and I will try to answer it. And now, you guys can continue criticize my stupid act and start making fun of my Inglsih. Happy Mother's Day!! Regards, Patrick Chan, owner of t206museum.com Last edited by bond73; 05-10-2009 at 09:52 AM.
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#3
05-10-2009, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
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#4
05-10-2009, 09:59 AM
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sir walter scott comes to mind
"Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive."
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#5
05-10-2009, 10:00 AM
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Well, it seems like a sincere apology but no question it was a really stupid, and illegal, thing to do.
May I ask what you used to print those overprint lines? What kind of equipment do you have?
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#6
05-10-2009, 10:17 AM
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consigning to REA
"Why did I consign the Revelle to REA?
First of all, the Revelle was the only other one that left my possession after being graded by SGC. The reason I consigned it to REA was to make their 2009 auction more "completed" after knowing they would have all t206 "Big 4" available in the same auction (which is something never happened before)." A truly impressive spin.
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#7
05-10-2009, 10:26 AM
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hmm
while contrition is a good thing, it's a fair question to ask whether you're sorry for what you did or just sorry that you got caught. There is other conduct that you have not explained--how you continued to prop up these fake cards for years, continued to perpetuate their existence and made several false and misleading posts in this forum in attempts to legitimize t206museum. Also, as has been suggested, the creation of these fakes required some extensive planning and rather careful workmanship--it can't be chalked up to a whim (times 4).
Last edited by nolemmings; 05-10-2009 at 10:28 AM.
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#8
05-10-2009, 10:28 AM
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Can we assume that you are the only person behind T206museum.com?
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
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#9
05-10-2009, 10:32 AM
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I am sorry, I do not buy it...you can apologize all you want and insist on not wanting to defraud anyone or make money but you did and it was most likely illegal...
It just sounds like you are trying to get sympathy for your deceit. I guess I am just less forgiving. These cards have been discussed many times before and you could have come on this board or your own site and said you made them. Years ago!! You didn't...you kept trying to sell them and finally consigned one to a major auction. Good luck with the Feds!
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#10
05-10-2009, 10:34 AM
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Here's what really scares me about this whole mess:
I've always wondered if the technology to counterfeit a tobacco era card was possible; could one find paper, ink, and printing plates, for example, to reproduce a T206 and get it past a grader? And the answer was always that it would be impossible to do as it would be readily detected. Now, with this overprint back getting holdered, as well as a couple of E94 overprints being encapsulated, the wall has been broken. What's stopping someone from creating nearly foolproof Old Puts, or taking a blank backed card such as M101-4/5, and creating a new back variation that no one has ever seen before? If the technology is good enough and it passes the grading test, then who knows what troubles lie ahead. This could be one of the biggest dangers the vintage card market has ever faced.
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#11
05-10-2009, 10:36 AM
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"What happen to the Lipe?
It was on eBay solely for showmanship ...." "Why did I consign the Revelle to REA? First of all, the Revelle was the only other one that left my possession after being graded by SGC. The reason I consigned it to REA was to make their 2009 auction more "completed" ...." These are my two favorite lies. Patrick, you really display much altruism towards REA, I'm sure Rob was appreciative of your efforts to make his auction more "completed." And ebay is not a museum, it is a money-making venture, period. I'd have to agree that you probably should shut your pie-hole at this point and consult a lawyer.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#12
05-10-2009, 10:45 AM
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Not sure why he would need a lawyer. No charges were brought against him and he's supposedly made restitution. Personally I think this case needed some kind of charges brought. The damage that something like that brings to the hobby deserves harsher penalties than an apology and restitution. The next guy will think he can get away with it too.
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
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#13
05-10-2009, 10:48 AM
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to sum up
He made them just for fun.
He encapsulated them just to educate the grading services. He put them out for sale just to show off. He consigned one just for the benefit of the auction house. He sold/traded one, but he made restitution. And he has sincerely apologized. I think HE is the victim here.
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#15
05-10-2009, 10:54 AM
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All very silly.
If we are to believe this guy's explanations are made in what he feels to be good faith, then he truly displays psychopathic traits. --No remorse expressed until he was caught --A convenient, scapegoat-like answer for everything --Excuses so laughably ridiculous in their mock complexity that a person would have to be a psychopath to believe them.
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#16
05-10-2009, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Sounds plausible to me. The only authentic backs will be those that were known to exist prior to new age printing techniques. If this is truly a danger, starting now you type card dudes should buy your Altoona Tribunes and Holmes to Homes and Gimbels cards in holders that were slabbed and numbered a few years ago.
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#17
05-10-2009, 10:59 AM
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Uncovered the mysteries of T206museum and OM
Yes, I robbed a bank. I did it for enjoyment and showmanship. I wanted to remain anonymous because I didn't want anyone asking me for loans. The money was burning a hole in my pocket, that's why I spent it. (Being sarcastic)
For years, I relied on T206museum for information. Now, I have a hard time believing anything that was on the site. I hope this con-artist goes to prison. Last edited by rdwyer; 05-10-2009 at 11:00 AM.
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#19
05-10-2009, 11:06 AM
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What a nutcase
I think he should go to jail for that. I also think that it's a strong likelihood that he will never try to do anything like this again, but this guy not being held accountable will only encourage the next A-Hole. Anyway, you never answered the question about how you did this. What sort of equipment to you have? And for crying out loud, what kind of name is Scott Bob?! Idiot
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#20
05-10-2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Barry - in my opinion..... it is absolutely possible.
__________________
Joe D.
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#21
05-10-2009, 11:32 AM
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I've been told, often in my life, that my biggest character flaw is that, on some days, I have an unflinching intolerance to ignorance and stupidity.
I guess today is just another one of those days. I'm willing to cut this guy zero slack, apology or not. I want him to go away.
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#22
05-10-2009, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
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#23
05-10-2009, 11:36 AM
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Pat
this is all very disturbing to me. T206 is my passion and after collecting for many years, I have become very knowledgable about the set. T206 Museum has some good info but it also insults my intelligence. I want to talk to you and not by email. I will be calling you. JR
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#24
05-10-2009, 11:42 AM
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Joe- since you are a printer you would know better than most what could be done with a printing press and the right paper and ink. I guess we may start to see it down the road.
If Mr. Chan could fabricate an Old Mill overprint, I assume it would not be too hard to add a couple of letters to a Joe Doyle T206.
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#26
05-10-2009, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Being a spanking new collector to the T field, before I started to collect this stuff, I was thinking exactly what Barry had written above in his two previous threads. The volume of fake material being passed off as real is...well...unnerving for me. I believe the ability to "create" authentic-looking T206's is rapidly approaching, if not here already; this is the greatest reason why I view the forums a few times a day - the combined knowledge of the people on this board, accompanied with the pictures and thoughts, helps me truly understand and get the "feel" for the T-series and helps me make decisions on my purchases. (In fact, there's a Cy Young on Ebay being sold as authentic, but I damn well know it's not - all due to this board). This is also why I have yet to grade any of my cards; I've kept them raw and I'll probably keep it that way; unless PSA or SGC comes up with an entirely DIFFERENT department based on vintage material, and they are transparent in their grading process, including identifying who's doing the grading, I plan on keeping my cards raw for as long as possible. As for Mr. Chan....first of all, you have guts to come on to this board, with people that have more knowledge than the Library of Congress about T series to apologize - I'll give you props for that - knowing full well you're about to get about 100 pages of flames. Whatever; no sympathy from me. I love the T-series too, but not crazy over it and it certainly isn't my only form of income (I've never sold a single T-series and I won't; I'm a pure buyer). I'll make it short - I don't like people like you. Makes people like me, and others on this board, to be even more vigilant than ever. So, I'll say it the way someone from 'da hood would say it...."STFU, save whatever credibility you MIGHT have, and don't come back." PS - sorry, it just burns me up thinking all the money I spent, staring at my cards, thinking I got scammed. Mr. Chan, you're the reason why some people WON'T collect vintage stuff. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr..........
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#30
05-10-2009, 12:45 PM
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I'd characterize my reading of the explanation as highly skeptical up until I got to the point about consigning to REA to "complete" the auction. What? That was the credibility-point-of-no-return for me.
I can see making them for fun to see if you can do it. I can also see showing them off online, to see if anyone catches on. I can even see getting them graded, again to see if the job is good enough to fool a professional looking at it in person specifically to identify additions and alterations. But the second you took or attempted to take a dime for one, all fun and challenge and testing of the system was off, and you became a common crook. Joann
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#31
05-10-2009, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
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#32
05-10-2009, 01:21 PM
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Joann he crossed the line LONG before that.
"What happen to the Hart? The Hart was the only one (other than Revelle) left my possession after being graded by PSA. About 7 yrs ago, my desperation on collecting t206s completely covered my sane and mind and traded out the Hart for some t206 oddities that I had never seen before."
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#33
05-10-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
If this putz's story is true and only a few of his frauds hit the market then I'm not sure it makes any sense for criminal charges to be brought. However, considering he made one apology yesterday and continued his fraud on this forum, and then made another apology today replete with more lies in it, it's difficult to know what the truth is. At the very least he should be banished from Net 54.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#34
05-10-2009, 01:41 PM
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Complete bogus garbage. Let's see how many blue gills get hooked by this bait. Chan is dirty, shilled auctions in the past and nothing he says here can make what he did ok.
He did what he did for one reason and one reason only! To deceive and steal. And when you are caught stealing you should be punished! I like the bank robbery comparison. If i pay back if i am caught should i walk???? Sorry pat, i have known you too long and you may win over a few saps but you are pure garbage to me and those packs have no chance of holding baseball cards unless you put them in there. Just my call but i am calling bs on this one. Sincerely, dan mckee
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#35
05-10-2009, 02:54 PM
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Pat,
I have had the liberty of reading many of your private emails in which the lies and deception are as thick as syrup. This was planned from day one and if the heat hadn’t come the card would have sold in REA you would have used your balance to buy lots in REA. You would have made a trade me with me on the Lipe once we baited you with some great cards from our respective collections. You also would have continued to lie to the owners of the Hart card as you did so many times before. The only reason you have remorse is the jig is up and you’ve been caught. Like all criminals you feel bad when you get caught. My advice keep that $206 dollars and put it towards attorney’s fees. $206 dollars really! You scam the collecting community for years use this board to hype BS items and services under an assumed name, hint at shilling major auctions and screw collectors out of tens of thousands of dollars. You have collectors trade away their prized possessions for fake cards you made with a rubber stamp to build a collection for yourself on basically stolen material. And $206 is the number you come up with? Well I guess we are breaking stereotypes here on Net54 I guess not all Asian Americans are good at math I stand corrected. My favorite line of yours in one of your emails is that you didn’t have access to your collection right now to trade some of those cards back...just like a pirate and a thief you want to hold on to all those great cards your ill gotten booty if you will that you managed to scam from innocent collectors. Do us and yourself a favor kill the site and disappear into anonymity once again you had no problem being an anonymous before try it again this time without robbing people for you own enjoyment or gain. P.S. One little word of advice while your dishing out thanks to folks you may want to thank that FBI agent for allowing you to work this out this way…biggest favor you have ever been given!
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#36
05-10-2009, 03:04 PM
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"Perhaps I am a little naive but I thought most collectors knew they were altered. I saw them on the t206museum was immediately suspicious and never really followed them. Considered it somewhat of a joke and a no-brainer. Feel the same about most of the stamped backed cards. Just "way" too easy to do!"
"Now that I read the stories I am shocked to find that collectors were spending serious money these overprints. Hope they all get their money back." Kevin Saucier www.AlteredCards.com - Kevin, "In this field I have found time and time again that if you're trying to do something good, and some people don't like it, you're probably doing something really great and important!" - Rob Lifson I guess Jim, Dan, FBI, Rob and I wasted a bunch or our time seems Kevin knew all along....  Silly us.
Last edited by wonkaticket; 05-10-2009 at 04:22 PM.
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#37
05-10-2009, 03:06 PM
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Is there someplace I can find a Kevin-blessed 150K underprint?
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#38
05-10-2009, 03:21 PM
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Barry, I think we may have already seen a counterfeit act of creating a 'new back variation' - the glossy Ty Cobb "Ty Cobb, King of the Tobacco World" back. Just that nobody knows for sure?
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#40
05-10-2009, 04:04 PM
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Yes, there are many bad T206 Doyles out there, and I am certain this is not the last instance of counterfeiting we will see with vintage cards. There are more out there, no doubt.
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#41
05-10-2009, 04:38 PM
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This was pointed out in a prior post:
The Drum pouch on T206museum.com was the SAME one that "800hitter" is currently selling on eBay: http://tinyurl.com/red56v Note how 800hitter stresses the T206 Museum's pricing and findings. For example: "Experts who have analyzed this pouch for the T206 museum Web site have indicated it is highly probable this pouch contains 1 or more t206 or t205 baseball card." . . . "A similar pack -- a GAI 8 Piedmont pack from this same era -- is currently selling on the T206 Museum Web site for $15,000 and a GAI 9.5 is selling for $30,000!!!" Is 800hitter Patrick's eBay user name? Last edited by Adam; 05-10-2009 at 04:46 PM.
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#42
05-10-2009, 04:45 PM
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In a world...
Quote:
Fighting for Justice in a world with none left to spare. This summer, as the biggest, newest scam of the hobby sears into our minds, join our Heroes in the fight against devaluing what we hold dear. BS grading- Join the Revolution. Can humanity survive? Kid's seats still just FIVE BUCKS! -Josh Last edited by joshr90; 05-10-2009 at 05:26 PM.
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#43
05-10-2009, 04:52 PM
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"The Drum pouch on T206museum.com was the SAME one that "800hitter" is currently selling on eBay"
Not was. Is! The Drum pouch on T206museum.com is the SAME one that "800hitter" is currently selling on eBay. Someone told me tfever was Patrick Chan's eBay username. http://profiles.friendster.com/4005719 Last edited by rdwyer; 05-10-2009 at 04:53 PM. Reason: edited to add link
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#45
05-10-2009, 05:21 PM
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www.whitepages address search:
Patrick Chan 354 N Macarthur Dr Palatine, IL 60074-3887 Bring a bat with you!
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#46
05-10-2009, 05:32 PM
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Come on Barry, you can't be serious??? The fake Nodgrass' the bogus Doyle's and PSA grader at the time Bill Hughes even admitted slabbing the trimmed Wagner.
3rd party grading is a joke amongst hobby veterens. It was laughed at at the 1991 Aneheim show when PSA first opened and I am still laughing!!!! Orlando is a town clown. The experts???? I feel very sorry for the people who have invested their trust in 3rd party grading. A close friend of mine just popped an authentic graded PSA card out and resubmitted and got a 9. His reward will be about $4K. God Bless Him. Dan Mckee
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#49
05-10-2009, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
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For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com. Instagram: @vintage_cigarette_packs
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#50
05-10-2009, 05:42 PM
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been out most of the day
I have been away since I made the other post a "sticky" this morning. Here is my take on the events and my view.
1. I think Pat is a true psychopath. I think with every single word he speaks he is only setting himself up for the next scam he pulls. 100% BS on every word he writes or speaks. 2. He should be in jail. 3. Overprints aren't as easy to fake as once thought. The ones that have been caught recently testify to this. Barry was incorrect in saying there was more than 1 E94 fake overprint. To my knowledge there was 1 and I own it now.....and probably always will. 4. Pat should be in jail and I don't believe one word he says. (redundancy on purpose) Last edited by Leon; 05-10-2009 at 06:12 PM. Reason: clarification
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