T218's vs. T219's vs. C52's

scooter729 · #1 06-06-2009, 05:26 PM

Hey all,

I've recently completed my T218 set, but as a tangent of it I've recently picked up some Honest Long Cut T219's and the Canadian C52's as well.

I know the T219's and C52's are more difficult to find, but on average, what do folks see as the typical selling prices on these? Assuming the T218 (common back) sells for 1x, are the T219's and C52's likely to be multiples of that?

Any info that can be provided would be most appreciated - thanks!

And for the sake of providing a picture, here are my recent T219 pickups...

JamesGallo · #2 06-11-2009, 11:37 AM

Tough to say, more popular players the multiplier might be a lot higher.

I would say the t219 is not as rare as the C52 but that is a guess, both are super tough.

I was able to stumble onto a C52 Attell and have seen 1 T219 and no other C52. I watch for just attell though so it might be different with other players.

James G

scooter729 · #3 06-11-2009, 02:33 PM

Thanks for the info, James.

I had an email asking about the difference with the C52's - here is a scan of some of mine. The T218's have a Mecca or Hassan ad on the back (or Tolstoi in some rare cases); note the back on these C52's.

Exhibitman · #4 06-12-2009, 10:00 AM

There are nuances to these issues:

T218 has three brands: Hassan, Mecca and Tolstoi. H and M are common; T is rare.

T219 has three brands also: Honest Long Cut, Miners Extra and Red Cross. HLC is the easiest of them. ME is uncommon (I'd say 1 in 10). RC is rare.

I'd rank them as follows:

T219 Red Cross
T218 Tolstoi
T219 Miners Extra
C52
T219 Honest Long Cut
T218 Hassan/Mecca

As far as pricing goes, with the caveat that ITE (In This Economy) all bets are off as far as how a given card does on a given day, I'd say for a typical card in collector grade, the multipliers would be about as follows:

T219 Red Cross 30x-50x
T218 Tolstoi 10x-20x
T219 Miners Extra 5x-7x
C52 3x-5x
T219 Honest Long Cut 2x-3x
T218 Hassan/Mecca 1x

scooter729 · #5 06-12-2009, 11:45 AM

Awesome; thanks for the very helpful information!!

JamesGallo · #6 06-13-2009, 01:48 PM

I think it is important to note that some players will sell for more then others. These is pretty obvious but even with the multipliers Jack Johnson or Attel may sell for more then a base common unknown guy.

I also think the Miners Extra might be harder then the Tolstoi, but again it may depend greatly on the player. I don't think I have heard of anyone have a Tolstoi Attell, but I haven't seen a Miner's extra either, so there are a lot of factors to consider.

James G

butcher354435 · #7 06-14-2009, 07:24 PM

T218 Tolstoi Attell does not exist. The T219 Attell is available in all 3 backs.

Brent

JamesGallo · #8 06-15-2009, 12:38 AM

Brent,

How can you say that for certain. I know many cards have not been found with that back but what makes you so sure?

Just wondering as I am not an expert but it is listed on the PSA Attell registry. My membership expired so I can't check population reports.

James G

butcher354435 · #9 06-15-2009, 07:59 AM

Tolstoi's were issued using the T218 series 2 subjects, 49 cards. There are 26 boxers in series 2. I have seen all 26 different and currently have 23 of 26. Until I see a Tolstoi outside of this list then I believe that only series 2 was issued with the Tolstoi reverse.

Patsy Brannigan - Boxer
Knock-out Brown - Boxer
Walter Bursch
Young Corbett - Boxer
Leach Cross - Boxer
C.M. Daniels (head to waist)
Young Donahoe - Boxer
W.C. Fielding
John Flanagan (head to waist)
Joe Gans - Boxer
George Gardiner - Boxer
H.E. Gissing
Abe Goodman - Boxer
Jack Goodman - Boxer
Charley Griffin - Boxer
J.L. Hartranft
Harry Haywood Jr.
Joe Jeanette - Boxer
James Jeffries(Portrait) - Boxer
Harry Jensen
Jack Johnson (front) - Boxer
Joseph Jordan
Al Kaufman - Boxer
W.J. Keating
W.J. Kramer
Sam Langford - Boxer
Young Loughrey - Boxer
Emilo Lunghi
Honey Mellody - Boxer
Frankie Neil - Boxer
Fighting Dick Nelson - Boxer
Young Nitchie - Boxer
Smythe Northridge
George J. Obermeyer
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien - Boxer
Tommy O'Keefe - Boxer
Billy Papke - Boxer
Frank Riley
J.A. Ruddy
UNK Russell - Boxer
Harry Sedley Jr.
Melvin W. Sheppard (front)
C.C. Steinert
Harry Stone - Boxer
Mike Sullivan - Boxer
Clarence B. Tippett
Jimmy Walsh - Boxer
R.P. Williams
Harold A. Wilson

All the best
Brent

Exhibitman · #10 06-17-2009, 12:07 PM

Now that's a name!

I have a T218 Mike (Twin) Sullivan Tolstoi.

Also, the Jeffries is arms folded.

butcher354435 · #11 06-17-2009, 02:49 PM

Dick Hollywood as found in teh SF Hess issue.

I have those 2 as well Adam and they are lebeled correctly in my Excel spreadsheet. I just grabbed that series 2 list from another post so I guess I should have checked it a little more closely.

Exhibitman · #12 06-20-2009, 03:40 PM

Confirmed, that is?

As to Attell I can confirm from personal observation the HLC and RC backs.

James: true some players sell for more than others but that would be built into the price structure at the common brand level and carried forward. Of course, when you get into the Red Cross area, some folks might pay an obscene premium to get a particular card they need to do a set or for a favorite pug.

butcher354435 · #13 06-20-2009, 05:32 PM

Its the 26 Boxers in the list earlier in this thread.

I also have T219 Attell with ME and RC backs.

JamesGallo · #14 06-21-2009, 02:40 PM

So since Attell isn't on this list does the mean he does not have a Mecca or Hassen series 2 back?

There Attell would have 2 T218 the Mecca factory 30 and Factory 649 and the same with the Hassen, plus the C52.

I believe he is found with all 3 T219 backs.

Would this be correct?

James G

Exhibitman · #15 06-28-2009, 08:19 AM

I have a series 2 Johnson green background.

butcher354435 · #16 06-28-2009, 11:09 AM

With a Tolstoi back Adam? If so, can you post scans?

All the best
Brent

Exhibitman · #17 06-28-2009, 04:54 PM

Not a Tolstoi back. Perhaps my post was confusing. What I am trying to get my arms around is the idea that the 49 cards listed above are "T218 series 2 subjects." I don't think that's an accurate characterization. The green bg Johnson would seem to break that rule since it can be found in either series 1 or series 2 back format. I also have series 1 backs of Gans, Gardiner, M. Sullivan and Walsh, all of which are on the series 2 list, which would seem to be enough exceptions to the rule to destroy the rule.

butcher354435 · #18 06-28-2009, 05:10 PM

I've never collected the T218 master set or even focused on a complete set but I have focused on a T218 Tolstoi boxing subset set for a few years. When I saw a post from an individual that had claimed he figured out the T218 issue I began to cross reference my Tolstoi list(I thought all 61 were available at one time) and realized that all 26 boxers he had listed in Series 2 were all that I had on my list as confirmed. I figured the coincidence of this happening was next to mathematically impossible and from that time concluded the Tolstoi boxing subset was complete at 26. Since that time I have yet to see or acquire a Tolstoi boxer outside of this list.

I wish others that collect T218's or Tolstoi backs could comment on this list to see if they have any non-boxers that aren't captured in the referenced list in this thread.

All the best
Brent

DaveW · #19 06-29-2009, 10:39 AM

I've put together a T218 set and have several C52 cards as well. I can confirm
that the 4 Tolstoi cards that I have are all on your list of Series 2 cards (Bursch,
Fielding, Keating and Northridge). As stated earlier, several cards are available
with both Series 1 and Series 2 backs.
I was surprised to see so many C52 cards shown that have numbers above 50,
since it says "50 Designs" on the back and all the ones I have are between number 1
and 50. It looks like I have a lot farther to go to get the entire set than I had thought.
- Dave

Exhibitman · #20 06-29-2009, 04:18 PM

50 cards each. There is a #50 Walsh and a #50 Keyes, so there's really 101 cards.

It would be way cool if Tolstoi was a 26 card subset; a lot easier than 61 cards to put together. However, with all the stuff that pops up I am a never say never kind of catalog writer when it comes to T cards.

DaveW · #21 06-30-2009, 11:22 AM

There are 2 number 50s? I've noticed other discrepancies in the C52 list. PSA has a partial list that has #3 Tippett, #8 Gissing and #33 Lunghi but I've seen these 3 numbers with different cards - #3 Murphy, #8 McFarland and #33 McGrath. Is it possible that there are really 150 cards (or maybe all 153 cards) - with 2 groups labeled #1-#50 and another group with #51-#100? I always find it odd that so little is known about a set that has been around for 100 years. They must be pretty scarce, or maybe nobody collects them.
- Dave