Some National Thoughts

[slidekellyslide]

I think some low noise level baseball music could put people into a buying mood.

A little "Joltin' Joe DiMaggio" or "Willie, Mickey and the Duke".....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRvyF...e=channel_page

[Jewish-collector]

I absolutely loved my entire National experience. The Net54 dinner was, without doubt, the absolute highlight of the trip to Cleveland. If the attendence keeps increasing, Leon will have to rent out a larger facility.

I agree with Rich that the admission price (and parking) is way too expensive. If you drive & park there, it costs $26 per day just to get in the door before you even buy anything.

I really like the National in Cleveland personally, but I think the organizers should be holding the National in additional different cities than what they are currently doing. I know next year will be in Baltimore, but then it seems to rotate between Chicago and Cleveland. Why not try other cities that have been mentioned in the past ?

During the late 1970s and early 80s, larger sports collectors conventions included seminars and discussion panels but the hobby eventually drifted into the mammoth show/autograph pavilion model. With the advance of the internet, less business than ever takes place in person and fewer discussions occur between dealers and collectors who share the same passion. I'd like to see more of these type seminars & discussions during the National weekend, either during show hours or after show hours rather than a separate "Premier Collectible Conference and Exhibition (PCCE)" show that was unsuccessfully held in April of 2008 in Chicago.

Much better & less expensive food courts. At least in Cleveland, you can't just walk outside & grab lunch. So make lunch better quality & more affordable to us poor slobs.

Regards,
Alan

[Steve D]

The change I want to see is for the National to get out of the Cleveland-Chicago-East Coast rotation.

Why not put Dallas and Los Angeles in the rotation?

I live in San Antonio TX, and the only National I've ever been able to go to was in Houston. We need to get the National to more cities, so more collectors have the chance to attend. Half the country is currently being left out of the mix, and I'm sick of it!


Steve

[Exhibitman]

Cleveland's IX Center is a shabby, shoddy, decrepit dog of a facility with terrible food, bathrooms that rival a bus station in Tijuana, and no amenities in walking distance. Shouldn't we aspire to something nicer for the premiere event of the hobby? IMO we would be far better served with a first-rate venue in a first-tier city, even if it costs a bit more. I know quite a few very "advanced" (free-spending) collectors who'd had a bellyful of Cleveland and skipped this show. Enough with the garage sale/thrift store approach. We don't need to slum it.

[Jim VB]

Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the Midwest/East Coast bias was being driven by the dealers themselves. The further west you go, the scarcer the product and exhibitors. (Especially in vintage cards, the West was still pretty unpopulated when much of the stuff we collect was distributed.)

I know the best attended National was in Anaheim, but many East Coast dealers didn't want to schlep their stuff across the country and back.

(From a retired retailer's point of view, the goal should be to schlep it across the country, SELL IT, and let someone else bring it back. Lots of guys would have to change their pricing and thinking. Novel concept, huh?)

I do know that Mike Berkus is a regular reader of the Non-Sports board. Although a good number of future events are already locked into certain cities, he may be more than willing to revisit the decision making process. I'll drop him an email and ask him if he wants to join the discussion.

[Jim VB]

Rich,

Don't think we didn't notice!

Very nice use of the word "whilst."

[benjulmag]

In the 28 or so Nationals dating back to the early '80s, exactly one has been in the New York City metropolitan area (Parsippany in 1984-sorry, Atlantic City doesn't count). Arguably New York City and its surrounds is home to the largest collecting base in the country. There has yet to be a national in Philadelphia or Boston, two major markets. I think year after year ignoring these major cities is very short-sighted. Sure its nice to have inexpensive hotels and other amenities, but its also nice to reach as much of the collecting base as possible. What would be so bad in rotating the National around geographic areas -- say one year in the northeast, the next in the midwest, then the west, southwest, southeast? Then, after the cycle has been completed, beginning it again but the next time at a different city in that geographic region.

[glynparson]

I like Corey's idea. I also agree with exhibitman's opinion of the I-X center and I had a good show.

[Rich Klein]

1) Corey is correct about the megalopolis from Boston to Washington getting the short end of the stick. Frankly; the cost to everyone of being in a large city is ginormous. Frankly the NY City area does not have a reasonably priced venue that would support the National. There are venues such as MSG or the Javitz that would but I'd guarantee the table rates would be at least double what they are now. I always wondered if the Valley Forge CC was big enough for this -- I know the Ft Washington was; but when the EPSCC was there -- I bet they had an exclusive.

2) Alan -- I guess admission was cheaper by a few dollars this year. The National Promoters can not usually control the Parking Prices for customers which is why I ask that admission be reduced. In the DFW area: now when I go to Arlington for a card show I know that the pricing is now part of the money I spend.

3) Note to EJM -0- although Exhibit Man is doing OK for himself; he is not super wealthy. No need for personal insults here. And nice way to make a debut on the board.

4) My personal belief at this time is that we should be in Chicago every year. Good location near airport; plenty of parking (both high and low priced) nearby; public transportation available; hotels one can walk to (or drive to) and in all price ranges from the Embassy Suites to Motel 6; etc.

5) I'm glad you contacted Mr. Berkus; I sent a note to John Broggi about this thread. Hope Mr. Wilke does not feel left out

Rich

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Cleveland's IX Center is a shabby, shoddy, decrepit dog of a facility with terrible food, bathrooms that rival a bus station in Tijuana, and no amenities in walking distance. Shouldn't we aspire to something nicer for the premiere event of the hobby? IMO we would be far better served with a first-rate venue in a first-tier city, even if it costs a bit more. I know quite a few very "advanced" (free-spending) collectors who'd had a bellyful of Cleveland and skipped this show. Enough with the garage sale/thrift store approach. We don't need to slum it.

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Ejm1

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

If your post wasn't so insulting to Adam it would make me laugh. You obviously have never met him. He's never been called some of those names before (perhaps other names, but not those.)

[mberkus]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks to Jim VB for bringing my attention to the thread. I will try to answer some of the issues, if I can, but I am not a one man show and others are part of the decision making process concerning the National. First, site selection issues. Since I live 10 minutes from the Anaheim CC, obviously I am very comfortable with the having the show return to Anaheim. Unfortuntately, the Anaheim CC will not have us. Just like the Moscone CC in SF, no consumer shows unless the CC has empty space 18 months out. We cannot wait to chance that we have a site for any year based on not having a contract 3-4 years beforehand. Lots of work to do before coming to town and do not want to risk any chance of missing a year of the show.

As for Philly, for many years Bob S. did not want us there and when Sportsfest launched, they stumbled terribly and scared the dealers vote away from the city. I lived there for 3 years and enjoyed it. Boston would be great, but the CC is too small and if Baltimore works (smallest CC we have ever had 290,000 sq ft to ave 400,000 sq ft), we might recheck Boston.

We have had serious discussions about Texas again, might happen.

As for music on the show floor, we had it for 5 years running and the dealers wanted it stopped. Nice for awhile but 5 days in a row and even your wife might agree with you.

Food concessions and parking. We have absolutely no control over any of that and do not share in any of the revenue. Sorry. Seems kind of silly to pay $4.50 for a Pepsi, must be nice to have a captive audience.

Seminars, games, fun get togethers, etc. all were part of the show during the early years. Now, no one attends any seminars, too competitive with the show hours and if we do them before or after, too long of a day. Nothing that either happens or does not happens, at the National, is not by a fluke chance. All aspects are approved by the Board of Directors, after the dealers vote on issues.

For those who had a good time, thanks for the comments. As for those who suggest changes, we always try our best to satisfy as many as possible. I will always be interested in hearing about how to make the National better.

Regards,

Mike Berkus

[Ejm1]

3) Note to EJM -0- although Exhibit Man is doing OK for himself; he is not super wealthy. No need for personal insults here. And nice way to make a debut on the board.
Thanks. I will continue the good work.

[smtjoy]

Mike, first thanks for coming to the boards and answering some of the questions. It's nice to hear the things you all have to consider and not just from a collectors standpoint. I am in Houston so very happy to hear you are considering coming back to Texas, please do. Any consideration towards Las Vegas, I have been to a number of conventions there and really enjoyed them? I hope you all keep the options open as there are a lot of cities it would be nice to see the National at.

[Jacklitsch]

Ejm1
member Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1

___________________________________________



WOW!! Nice first post. Welcome to the Board.

[benjulmag]

You didn't mention the NYC metropolitan area.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Ejm1

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

As a dealer, I need exhibitman. I was happy he bought a card from me. Unfortunately he isn't a Trust Fund Collector or he would have probably bought a few more of my cards.

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

As a dealer, I need exhibitman. I was happy he bought a card from me. Unfortunately he isn't a Trust Fund Collector or he would have probably bought a few more of my cards.

Great. Fantastic. He's not a trusty fundy. The point is he thinks the I-X and Cleveland is a toilet (Which it's not, sorry) it comes across pretty arrogant. Hey, to each his own. I'm just a simple Hillbilly trying to collect ballcards.

[Reginald Marsh]

Am i at the National...........ZZZZZZZZZZZ.............

[Rich Klein]

Mike:

TY for answering some of my concerns. As you are aware; this is not a I hate the National post; but a true post with my concerns and with my suggested solutions. After all those years I thought that was a fair way to post.

Notice the only issue I asked to be reduced was the daily admission fee. I realize that parking and concessions are beyond your realm. Just trying to assuage the pain for daily collectors a tiny bit. Just remember; the National Promoters and board members have to pay the concession prices as well. I'm also hoping; as Chris points out a few posts down; that we can attract newer people into our fold with reduced attendance.

Obviously MVP badges are better and I'm all in favor of you selling as many of those as you can. If you noted within my post; I put in my hours suggestions extra times for MVP's and Super MVP's to be on the floor. I would assume those people would spend more. I liken those type of badges to seating at "premium" baseball games. I expect more to pay for walk-up tickets when the Yankees come to Texas than I do for a mid-season mid-week series with the Kansas City Royals. For those complaining about the MVP badge price; remember under my plan AND the current plan; the people get to come in earlier; get priority (or a few free) autos and get a better chance at better cards. MVP badges actually protects those collectors who want more chances at better cards.

As a note to most posters; one of the reasons SportsFest in Philly had so much trouble was that it was a downtown show. Trust me on this; very few card shows work in a downtown venue. They need to be where cars can come to them. Downtown shows stopped working for the most part by 1982. Al Rosen's 1988 MSG show was a rare exception and frankly one of the reasons for the big success of that show was that Richard Nader, the famed Rock Music Show Promoter had a big part in promotion for that show.

The GR Brown convention center in Houston is a very nice facility for a show. I'm also a big fan (perhaps the only one) of Market Hall in Dallas.

I appreciate those who are keeping this thread in the manner to which it was intended. For those going after E-Man; etc. please take your postings to PM's.

Regards
Rich

[ChrisStufflestreet]

Rich,

First of all...glad to meet you this year. Had a great time chewing the fat with you and Alan after the Net54 dinner.

Great points. But I'd like to add something the two of us discussed then: even though the majority of Net54 people are concerned with prewar vintage stuff, there's the fact that none of us is getting any younger. What about the future collectors?

My daughter Melissa (10 years old, she stopped in for the dinner and was wearing a Red Sox jersey) had a blast this year because I decided to make the trip as much hers as I did mine. In fact, this year my wife did the yeoman's work of adding to my collection while Melissa and I looked around for stuff, got autographs and enjoyed our time together. It was a major win/win for me: Ellen didn't get to give me her usual "you spent how much?" speech and my daughter got some valuable time with her Daddy (especially since we're nearing those dreaded teenage years and my window of opportunity for Daddy/daughter time is going to close just as soon as she realizes I'm "uncool") that will be a great memory even after the collection becomes a thing of the past.

I've said it in another thread and I'll say it again here: my daughter had a better show than I did (and I had a great time). Several fellow hobbyists commented to me that it was great to see a kid getting involved, and that began a discussion with my wife as we drove back home. Had I been able to attend a National at the same age (in my case, that would have been '83 Chicago), would I have had the same great time?

Sadly, I think it wouldn't have happened the same way for me. That's because when I attended my first show (in 1985 at the State Office Building in Watertown, NY) I sensed that the dealers were a little reluctant to deal with kids. In a way, the most important thing about kids was the wallets their parents were carrying so dealing with those little snot-nosed cardbenders was a means to the end result of earning money. In my case, I was well-versed on 1950s baseball by then and was able to get through to some dealers by talking with them. However, looking at 1985 vs. 2009 may be an apples/oranges comparison; then, 30-year old cards were from 1955 and were valuable enough to make my mother admonish me to be very careful if I picked them up, but today, 1979 Topps commons are tossed without a second thought into 25-cent boxes.

It made me think...when several people stopped by to commend me for simply bringing my little girl along to the show, it made me realize that I don't see the father/son pairs searching for cards as frequently as I did when I was a "weekend warrior" seller from 1989-'92.

Not so much a question as a stray thought I've had since leaving the show...

[tothrk]

Originally Posted by Ejm1

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

Welcome. You bring that old "jump in head first" saying to a whole new level. I agree that a venue with better food and a nicer latrine would be nice. Also, some accomadations or anything within walking distance would be nice. I live only 45 minutes from the I-X center so I'm basically interested in nicer food & a clean bathroom. Getting some different cities involved would be nice. However, the whole "Super MVP" and "MVP" and "Platinum Poobah" puts me off.

[Bamacollection]

My only thought on the National...JEALOUS!!!! Some day, some year...It will happen!

[tbob]

I've been to about 8 of the Nationals and the ones in Arlington (Dallas) and St. Louis are right at the top of the ones I have attended although the 2006 Chicago National was excellent also.
Baltimore was a great choice. The continuing less than dynamic duo of Chicago and Cleveland is not.

[Oldtix]

From 1986 to 2001, I was an exhibitor at 11 Nationals. I returned to the National for the first time last week just as a fan and really enjoyed the experience. Here's my two cents from the perspective of "fresh eyes".

(1) I didn't see pogs, beanie babies pavillions, TV celebrity autograph guests, X-treme sports stunts or rabid buying of promo cards by lobby squatters. True, there was a ferris wheel...but nobody's perfect. Congratulations to all of us for beating those cancers into remission.

(2) I entered at 10 am Friday and finished seeing every table a half hour before closing time, even taking time to chat and grab a bite for lunch. That would never have been possible with the 1,000-plus tables of the boom years. Congratulations to the organizers for seeing that bigger isn't always better.

(3) With few exceptions, I felt that almost every exhibitor was genuinely interested in what they were selling. I'm sure there were mercenaries there, but nowhere near as many as in days gone by. Countless times I saw them sharing their knowledge and their wants with customers and with other dealers. The brotherhood of collectors seems to be strong; the Net54 dinner was terrific.

(4) We definitely have an aging collector base, but if addressing that takes us back to pogs and beanie babies...let us die off with our dignity and resist a relapse.

(5) The organizers did a fantastic job of mixing up the dealers. There was great variety from table to table; I never glazed over at repetitive themes in any aisles. And there weren't many tables of artificial "collectibles."

(6) There were extraordinary treasures as in the old days (and not just at the auction house booths). A novice would absolutely feel like they had visited Cooperstown. Whether they sold or not, I'm grateful to all who brought their best stuff to the show. And the focus of the show was the stuff, not the fluff.

In summary, it felt like a true National Sports Collectors Convention should feel. Sure, the hobby has issues as readers of these boards are well aware...but this collector's spirit was refreshed!

[Wite3]

I missed this year's National for no other reason than the economy. A flight from LA to Cleveland was expensive. Before people jump on me...I did check it out well in advance. How about putting a National in a city that is a flight hub like Pittsburgh, Atlanta, or Dallas. Cheaper airfare, hotels, and venues are probably more likely to be found in those cities.

I would love it to be in Vegas but there is resistance to that venue. Vegas really does have it all, Convention centers, cheap flights/hotels, good public transportation, entertainment for the whole family, etc.

Joshua

[tinkereversandme]

I have certain issues every year with the National. Of course the admission and parking is criminal. I have issues with how sad the National is now, compared to when I started going in the mid-1980's. There is no energy. It's frail and ill. It's a different world of collecting with eBay, auction houses, the death of the current Baseball Cards and such.

I pointed to a card in a dealers cases. A rather common 1950's football semi-star with an SMR of $85. His price? $225! That same card can be found on eBay for about $90-100 and BIN's for around $150.

Since one of the people behind the National is on here, I must say that I understand that it's not your fault, but what these past and present athletes charge for signatures is simply stupid. There is nothing sadder than seeing a big name athlete charge three figures for something, sign like thirty signatures total and then sit there. Leave these guys home. I would prefer a quantity of common guys for $10-15 per who normally don't do many signings than what I saw.

How many times can Jim Brown or Joe Namath or Joe Montana do a show? Geez.

Las Vegas makes too much sense. Convention Capitol of the U.S.

Larry

[Rich Klein]

That is done by the Convention Center. The biggest problem with parking in Cleveland, is unlike Chicago, there is no cheaper outlet. If you wish to walk a bit in Chicago, I belive parking is $3 for the day at the CTA station. If you read my original treatise; my point was on admission charges NOT on parking. Let's focus on what we can change; not what the promoters have no say over.

Here is an example of that; due to union rules at the I/X Center; if you wish to carry out your merchandise; you must use a two wheeler. They will stop you at the door with a four wheeler. The promoters have no control over that and again we learn to live within those rules.

The autographs are also not part of the promoters reach. IIRC; they contract with Tri-Star to bring in autograph guests. Tri-Star does a great job with that and the autographs are for all price levels from nominal to $200+. That is not really an issue either as the autograph flow does not affect the show traffic. And again; another reason why I don't mind the promoters selling MVP or Super MVP tickets; etc. Some of the cheaper autographs become free with the higher end badges and that is fine. To use another ballpark in Arlington analogy; when I go to Rangers games with my friend whose tickets are six rows behind the visitors dugout; we also have the right to enter the gold club. Somone in the bleachers does not have that same option. The cost of the ticket is also much more for the better seat.

Regards
Rich

[Reginald Marsh]

Rich is correct that the show could be held in Chi-town every year. The Rosemont is simply the best building in the hobby and there is always a buzz in that place.

I had no complaints about Cleveland and i thought the IX-Center was very easily found from any direction. I thought the Legendary auction was alot of fun to.

Even though alot of the cards were over priced all one had to do was hustle and there were bigtime bargains. One table had cards at 4.00 dollars a piece or 20 for 60 dollars and i was not even going to stop but a 1971 PSA high number 8 was on top of one pile, all of the cards were graded by PSA and i bought 30 PSA 7 to 8 1971 high numbers and alot of other cards for 3.00 bucks a piece and i do not normally fool around with lower end cards so there really was a bargain for everyone.

If anyone stopped by my cases i was practically giving things away, it was almost comical at the ridiculous low prices i quoted just to watch people think if it was a good deal or not.

The National is like any other show where the early bird gets the worm, you have to be there early and know what you are looking for and there are great deals to be had, if you plan on showing up on Saturday and waltzing around most of the great deals are already snatched up.

[mberkus]

OK, there have been some very passionate comments made and some very complimentary statements as well. I thank Jim, Rich, Leon, and others who truly care about the National and attend with a love of this hobby. Many issues concerning the show are just not known by so many people. I think that most of you, once explained, understand what can and cannot be done. All sites of the National are voted on by the dealers. No one, myself included, can select a National location without the dealers voting. Anything that happens at our show, booth fees, site selection, expenses, decorating, etc. are approved by the Board of Directors (which I am not a member), before they are put in place. Our show is owned by the dealers and everything is decided by the dealers. Once the show location is approved, my team (John Broggi, Bob Wilke, and myself) are directed to operate the show under the terms laid out by the Board of Directors. We do not make these decisions on our own. It truly matters not to me where the dealers choose our show location, I am consumed by creating the marketing, advertising, and partnerships so desperately needed by the National, to make thing work best. My role is the same regardless of the site. For those of you who think I make all these decisions, check with the Board of Directors and you will find the truth. Truth be told, I am the least political of anyone. I just want the show to survive. It is a matter of pride. No one has more fun at a National than me. I live for it.

Most dealers and collectors do not care about the details of the show. They just want it right, when they get there. They want the booth selection that they picked out ready, tables, sign, and chairs. They want the show to open on time and have no cares what the fire marshall might desire or demand. I don't blame them! They pay the freight of the show and that means I work for them. Many of the participants of the National have no idea what we have discussed so far on this thread and could care less. As Rich said " the old dealer meetings lasted until 2am". Today, our dealer meetings last 15 minutes. Things run smooth because both the Board of Directors and our promotion group are on the same track. Keep it simple and do it right. If you want a scary moment, walk into a 500,000 sq ft facility 2 days before setup and take a hard look at an huge empty area. Then, worry about filling it up with dealers, attendees, corporate sponsors, and staffing. That always gets to me before each National. No matter how many shows I have done, I always worry that this one will fail. It is what keeps me honest and working hard.

Whether it is Frank wanting Knoxville or anyone else with ideas that differ from what we are doing currently, I am always interested in hearing about it. But, once the music starts, just like a ballgame, it is too late for talking we have a show to run. Aside from seems like my complaining, I wouldn't have it any other way. I love being part of the show and hope that some of the information I have passed on is helpful to you. I know that without your participation, we would be far worse off. We need all of you to care, imput ideas, and most of all, be at the show.

Good luck to everyone for the next year and if I can be of any help, my email is mberkus@aol.com. I truly enjoy hearing from you. Hope everyone can make it to Baltimore. Most importantly, stay well, none of us are young!

Best regards,

Mike

[Willstk]

As a lurker living in Baltimore,looking forward to my 1st National, how much complaining do I have to do to get my free pass?

Can't wait until next year - and will be offering any help I can to the board for surviving in and enjoying Baltimore.

Will

[mberkus]

Dear Lurker,

I will take care of anyone who has posted before "this post". I appreciate all the comments so I have made a list of those who took the time to chat and if anyone who has posted on Rich's thread prior to this last post of mine, wants to attend, email me at mberkus@aol.com. Sorry, to those who I cannot include, you are still welcome to attend but unless the Balt CC decides to let me have their facility for free, we need admissions!

See you in Balt.

Mike

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Steve D

The change I want to see is for the National to get out of the Cleveland-Chicago-East Coast rotation.

Why not put Dallas and Los Angeles in the rotation?

I live in San Antonio TX, and the only National I've ever been able to go to was in Houston. We need to get the National to more cities, so more collectors have the chance to attend. Half the country is currently being left out of the mix, and I'm sick of it!


Steve

Amen. Chicago every 4th year and drop Cleveland. Baltimore next year will be great and I wish 2011 was in Dallas and 2012 in St. Louis.