Some National Thoughts

[smtjoy]

Mike, first thanks for coming to the boards and answering some of the questions. It's nice to hear the things you all have to consider and not just from a collectors standpoint. I am in Houston so very happy to hear you are considering coming back to Texas, please do. Any consideration towards Las Vegas, I have been to a number of conventions there and really enjoyed them? I hope you all keep the options open as there are a lot of cities it would be nice to see the National at.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Mike, first thanks for coming to the boards and answering some of the questions. It's nice to hear the things you all have to consider and not just from a collectors standpoint. I am in Houston so very happy to hear you are considering coming back to Texas, please do. Any consideration towards Las Vegas, I have been to a number of conventions there and really enjoyed them? I hope you all keep the options open as there are a lot of cities it would be nice to see the National at.

How about Kansas City? Attendees can see a ballgame and visit the Negro League Museum as well.

http://www.kcconvention.com/cec.nsf/web/facilityfacts

[mberkus]

Hello Again,

As time permits, I can check back to review additional comments. Actually, the 2 weeks after the show are the hardest. Both exhausted and have to finish up a ton of details.

NY was one of the funniest experiences ever for trying to set up a National. We went into the Javits Center, since we need a minmum size floor, and met with their space reps. With consideration to booth fees, we actually struck a deal. Then the two guys from the decorator's union came into the meeting. They asked "how much do you charge for a booth to your people?" I told them, at the time, $650. They moved their toothpicks around a bit and came back with "OK, you need 2 tables, 4 chairs, and a small sign in each booth. That will be $2450". I thought they had misunderstood and I repeated we only charge $650 per booth. But they replied " That's your problem". After working with the hotels, parking, and the Javits, we figured booths would be a reasonable $3500 each, hotel nights $425, and parking $35 per day.

KC was too small a site for us last time we check, nice city though!

Booth prices are based on competitive collectible shows and what is needed to pay the $400,000.00 facility and decorator fees. Admission price is based on the amount needed for advertising, marketing, promotions. We run an average of 14 newspaper ads, 500 radio spots, and 50 TV ads. We also pay for Cleveland.com, travel mags, online sites, and banners. The average ad we place is $9500.00 per 1/4 page. Once we put this together we count on the previous attendance numbers and come up with as reasonable an amount for per person to attend. We never profit much on attendance, just one of those things since our hobby has decreased a bit.

Finally, the aspect of admission price. Kind of silly to pay to come into a facility to buy stuff? Always bothered me. But, the costs to host the show have to be met somehow and admission fees are one of the streams of income. On a very personal note, certainly not shared by my partners, I figured that if a person could not handle the parking and admission price, then how much does it mean to the dealers who are looking to sell cards? If $18 to get in and $8 to park are a burden, then how do we rationalize the guy who flys in and has to stay in a hotel and rent a car? No easy answer. But, as usual in a free society, those who feel the value pay the way and those that don't, stay home. I remember an individual who told me that if it wasn't worth the price of admission, it probably wasn't worth going to.

Hope to see everyone in Baltimore. Seems like a lot of excitement to hit a brand new territory.

Best regards,

Mike

[Exhibitman]

I don't know Eric, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt...this time...and let his post speak for itself. The irony, of course is that I'm probably the cheapest, lowest grade, least trust-funded collector this side of Alan (hi Alan; no offense, we're all mishpacha here...).

Regardless, anyone with even half a brain can see that the difference between last year's show (Rosemont) and this year's show (IX Center) is like night and day. Rosemont had four hotels across the street with a bevy of restaurants nearby. No parking, no driving, no shuttles, no IX "cuisine" at ridiculous prices (I could eat at Gibson's every day for what the IX wanted for its slop). It had myriad places throughout the center to sit down (in easy chairs) and relax between floor walks. It was easy to go back to one's hotel and relax for a while. It was simply superior in every possible way to the Cleveland venue. The people who attended this year's show described it to me as "shabby" "a slog" "unpleasant" "seedy" and several other less than salutary terms. Given that the IX Center is so far below the standard of Rosemont, there is no good reason to ever go back there.

[Reginald Marsh]

If someone is complaining dealer or buyer about parking and admission which is a total of 26 bucks then stay at home and buy on e-bay. I personally think 26 dollars is cheap to see some of the best cards in the world in one room and a chance to complete sets or find super rare cards.

In a world full of folks constantly griping about a few dollars try fastening your seatbelts and think about the folks that lost their entire life savings in Madoff's crazy scheme.

If a person wants to buy nickel and dime cards then they do not need to go to the national to find them. I almost fell off my chair when i guy rolled up and said i am here for one reason and that is to find the 1969 Ted Williams manager card do you have one?

I do think their needs to be some light rock-n-roll background music because the room needs energy and the music does not need to be cranked just played.

[tothrk]

It would be a change of pace to hold the National on a cruise ship. Maybe a 5 day Caribbean excursion.

[Ejm1]

If a person wants to buy nickel and dime cards then they do not need to go to the national to find them. I almost fell off my chair when i guy rolled up and said i am here for one reason and that is to find the 1969 Ted Williams manager card do you have one?

I get your point, but if all the collectors of this type vanished, whats left? Just make it a trade show not open to the public, dealers only. It seems the small timer is not a welcome guest.

[Reginald Marsh]

Not true.....everyone is welcome just not those who complain about fees. If you are only looking for a 10 dollar card then why drive 4 hours and pay 26 bucks to get in. I would never travel to the National looking for things i could find everyday in multiple places.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Ejm1

Just make it a trade show not open to the public, dealers only. It seems the small timer is not a welcome guest.

I agree. The arrogance at trade shows turned me off of them. I just save my pennies and buy a vintage card every once in a while, and I'm not willing to deal with the bloated sticker prices and used car salesman mentality.

[mjkm90]

I'm a memorabilia guy and have a small group of cellecting buddies who attend the National most years. We have different income levels, life situations, and collecting budgets, but we would ALL attend and LOVE the National if it were held behind the dumpster at Ponderosa. I'm there for the people and the product. I am fortunate enough to have the means to attend a ball game, high end restaurant, or posh hotel when I wish, but the National is my destination for this trip. Sitting on a box in a booth or drinking cheap beer in a motel room and telling hobby stories is fine with me. Every penny I spend on hotel and food means less money to spend with dealers. I met a few card guys at the dinner, all were super nice, and seemed very into the experience not the location.

[Exhibitman]

Mike H: Understood. However, wouldn't it be nice if the experience was pleasant as a whole rather than tolerated for the cards, esp. since the costs are about the same? My point being that you don't have to do the premiere trade show in the convention center equivalent of a rec center basement. If you do that every other year, you risk losing your customer base. I know for a fact that quite a few collectors who are active on this board did not attend this year's show because they did not want to go to the IX again.

As far as cheap/readily acquired cards go, everyone collects what they like, and sure, they can probably buy on Ebay, but those who attended the show looking for common cards still wanted to come to a National. Which makes it all the more important to get those people an experience that isn't second rate. If the experience is seedy, unpleasant, unmemorable, etc., for the casual collector, they aren't going to come back, because they can do the same thing on Ebay.

Rich K: I don't think incremental changes in the admission and parking costs are going to deter any collectors from attendance or encourage anyone to come to the show solely on that basis.

Music is a horrible idea. In order to make it anything more than background noise it would have to be loud enough to be intelligible, which would make it too loud to converse over.

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by mjkm90

I'm a memorabilia guy and have a small group of cellecting buddies who attend the National most years. We have different income levels, life situations, and collecting budgets, but we would ALL attend and LOVE the National if it were held behind the dumpster at Ponderosa. I'm there for the people and the product. I am fortunate enough to have the means to attend a ball game, high end restaurant, or posh hotel when I wish, but the National is my destination for this trip. Sitting on a box in a booth or drinking cheap beer in a motel room and telling hobby stories is fine with me. Every penny I spend on hotel and food means less money to spend with dealers. I met a few card guys at the dinner, all were super nice, and seemed very into the experience not the location.

Love this post!

[Ejm1]

Exhibitman:
Sorry for the harsh words, I just get tired of the Cleveland bashing. It seems that if it's not a costal city it must be a dump. Long live the small collector.


Instead of music perhaps a mini Jubotron type screen with old W.S. highlights or old newsreels about sports or just about anything with Mel Allens or Curt Gowdys voice.

[rc4157]

This was my 1st National so I can't compare to any of the other venues. I kind of expected food to be expensive and it was certainly enjoyable to see all of the cards available, even if I wasn't purchasing in the high dollar range.

It sounds like Chicago was a great place to host the National, that would still be within driving distance for me, approx. 5 hours, so I'd like to experience the convention there in 2 years.

Overall, I had a great time, the highlight was meeting some board members at the dinner.

Oh yeah, background music would be good, but it would have to be soft enough to allow discussion and would have to vary enough to not drive people crazy that are confined to their booths for 5 days.

Edit to add: I felt welcomed by the majority of dealers, even some who just wanted to share info. regarding particular players. One dealer shared a scrapbook of Ted Kluszewski material after I asked him about a '49 Leaf of Klu, he didn't have the card but shared the album. I'm sure he would have liked for me to purchase it but he just thought it was a pretty cool item, which it is.

RC

[Ray Van]

First of all, I thought the bathrooms were clean and the food wasn't bad. $5 for a slice of pizza and a Pepsi isn't bad considering ... and there were lots of different food choices. Not haut cuisine, but not bad either. Logistics plays a role in that large venues tend to be close to airports - in Cleveland's case there's not a lot within walking distance but that's what you get - and you know that going in, so don't complain about it after the fact! Cleveland is a nice city and we enjoyed our trip - we drove in from Toronto and stayed downtown - my trusty GPS got me from the hotel to the show and back.

My biggest peeve about the show is the dealers that pack up early or don't even bother showing up on Sunday. That happened to be the only day I could go and this was my first taste of the National in about 20 years. I was there for the day, but in the afternoon almost every second table was deserted. Not a pleasant experience - more needs to be done to keep dealers there for the entirety of the show. No excuses. Sorry, you'll just have to book a later flight.

I also found most items to be very overpriced. I wasn't expecting fleabay prices, but 3-4x ebay prices is a little ridiculous. I left with $1000 burning a hole in my pocket (and I don't have deep pockets) - imagine how much more you could sell if your prices were more in tune with reality? Of course I'll pay more to see and hold something in person ... but only to a point.

And the comment about the 1969 Ted Williams card - you are missing the point. That is the collector you want to cultivate - we all started there at some point. If that person has a positive experience, maybe next time he will be collecting the Fleer Ted Williams set or an autographed bat - who knows where that will lead to (I never thought I'd get a Turkey Red but I picked up my first two a couple weeks ago). We all play in role in nurturing new and experienced collectors alike - snobbery about cities, venues, or collecting habits isn't necessary.

Two additional suggestions for sellers:
1) put prices on your stuff - chances are I'm not going to ask how much, instead I'll find another table with the same item with a price on it
2) make eye contact and turn away from your conversation with a buddy - you might lose a sale otherwise

Despite some minor negative thoughts, I found the experience overall to be a positive one and something I will come back to in the future ... just not every year.

[Jewish-collector]

The admission & parking fees will never deter me from going, but it is a hell of a lot of money. That money could have been used for cards & memorabilia.

Also wanted to add that the House of Blues in Cleveland is an absolutely fantastic concert venue. Too bad Alice in Chains wasn't playing there while I was in Cleveland.

[bcornell]

I just did my 7th straight National. Not a great year for buying cards, but I'm still glad the event exists. And it's good to hear from Mike Berkus about the logistics. There was a rumor that 2011 would be in Anaheim, but I guess that's out. Looking forward to Baltimore and 30-40 of us having a slumber party at Dan Mckee's house.

My only request is find anywhere else other than Cleveland: 3x in 6 years coming from the West Coast is a drag. There's now just one direct flight from SFO to there per day. Our Seattle friends had to go through Dallas. Etc.

My favorite moment from this show was a spontaneous sale to a Phillies collector that I made at Rhett Yeakley's table. The guy mentioned he wanted a D381 Fleischmann Bancroft and I had my only dupe from that set in my backpack. He was glad & so was I. Oh - and thanks for letting me poach, Rhett.


Bill

[JamesGallo]

I think I have a rather unique view of shows, as I have done them all over the world. I went to the last national in Cleveland, I have done shows in LA, NYC and Chicago.

The price for a 10x10 booth at the Javis center for NY Comic Con is $1000 plus $200 per table but you could bring your own if you wanted to. This is far from what was said above and this show was only last year. If could be slightly different as this is an annual show, so maybe they get better prices.

The Chicago comic con has a similar type cost. I personally don't like the Javis venue as there isn't much around food or hotel wise, but obviously cabs are very easy to get.

Downtown LA has a huge center but it closed down early and after 8 you couldn't find a place to eat.

My understanding is that the Baltimore convention center is huge since it expanded.

What about the Nassau Coliseum, I remember the old shows in the 90s and they were great. Plenty of hotels at reasonable prices and not hard to get to. Should be plenty of room as well.

I do think the north east would do well with a national.

I think the food and bathrooms are typical of any large venue, I don't recall the food being so bad in Cleveland, it just seemed that it was a bit dated.

At the comic and star wars shows they have stuff going on all the time, but I think that works because there are more aspects to those properties, such as writers, actors, artists etc. Those aspects down draw for sports cards. Perhaps more kid friendly things would work though.

As for the VIP tickets the only use I found for them was early admission. I have had no interest in any of the signers for the last few shows so getting stuff signed does me no good. I would prefer to have an option of a non autograph VIP ticket at a reduced price.

Just some thoughts.

James G

[tbob]

[QUOTE=Ray Van;739954]

And the comment about the 1969 Ted Williams card - you are missing the point. That is the collector you want to cultivate - we all started there at some point. If that person has a positive experience, maybe next time he will be collecting the Fleer Ted Williams set or an autographed bat - who knows where that will lead to (I never thought I'd get a Turkey Red but I picked up my first two a couple weeks ago). We all play in role in nurturing new and experienced collectors alike

Well said.