19th century " Holy Grail "

[Wesley]

Everyone is trying to name the rarest or earliest or most valuable card. That's fine, but not responsive to the original question.

[alanu]

The fact there isn't already a Holy Grail of 19th Century Cards, probably means there never will be one card.

IMHO, part of the the problem is that there are so many sets, not just individual cards that are in short supply, no one card will ever stand out.

[rman444]

Maybe a better thread would be "Who actually wants one of the Holy Grails?"

I have never owned a T206 Wagner or 1952 Topps Mantle, nor do I think that I ever will really want to given how much they sell for.

[Leon]

Rman and Wes.......Exactly.....we are seeing it the same way. IF we leave out the part about enough copies to be collectible then certainly Anson in Uniform, Just So Young, P and S Creighton and FBH Kelly would be at the top of many, if not most lists..However, with the Anson in Uniform being a total of 4 copies known, and the other 3 far less, these are not the correct answers.

Several board members, of course including myself, own an 1869 Peck and Snyder team card...AND they are available enough to own one if you want to (and have the money). Now, to get technical I don't think Gary mentioned it could be a team card, so if it can't then I am not sure what one I would pick. I kind of like the N172 Ewing and mascot.....it's a great card but I doubt there will be a good, overwhelming consensus on what the 19th Century holy grail is...best regards

[barrysloate]

There is no consensus, and there are too many rare 19th century cards. Every Kalamazoo Bats New York Giant or New York Met has 1-3 known, but none of them would qualify. There are probably at least half a dozen cards worthy of the title, and the best you could do in determining a winner is to have a poll.

[uffda51]

Along the lines of Leon's post (Hi, Leon), what if we limited our choices to something approaching the availability of the Wagner - say at least 50-100 examples or more. If we rule out team cards and the ultra rare cards of great players, where does that leave us? The 1952 Topps Mantle and the T206 Wagner are clearly the Grail cards of their eras even though the Mantle is not rare and not a rookie, and there are far tougher Wagners than the T206. I don't think there is a true Grail card for the 19th century, although there are certainly some great cards and some tough cards out there, as well as personal favorites. The N162 Anson comes close, though, IMHO.

[aaroncc]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There is no consensus, and there are too many rare 19th century cards. Every Kalamazoo Bats New York Giant or New York Met has 1-3 known, but none of them would qualify. There are probably at least half a dozen cards worthy of the title, and the best you could do in determining a winner is to have a poll.

Not sure about the specifics. But I think a poll is a good idea.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by aaroncc

Not sure about the specifics. But I think a poll is a good idea.

If there is a poll the way the question is phrased will be very important. Picking a top 5? cards won't be too difficult but there could be a little bit of jockeying in positions. Certainly many of those already mentioned would make the list. You are welcome to start one Aaron, or anyone else.

[Bicem]

In that case I really can't think of a 19th century card as overrated as the Wagner or Mantle so I stumped.

[ElCabron]

I think most of us answered the original question. I didn't even see the modifications mentioned later. In fact, the stipulations added seem very contradictory to the original question, in my opinion.

In the original post we are asked if there are simply too many "extreme rarities" for any one card to stand alone. Then later we are told it would have to be a "special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible."

If a card is "available enough to be collectible" it is automatically NOT a Holy Grail card in my opinion. That's one reason the Mantle and Wagner are both NOT Holy Grail cards. Might be collectible and desirable, but a true Holy Grail card should be nearly impossible. Not impossible. But NEARLY impossible.

Maybe I have a different understanding of the term "Holy Grail" than most. I am unfamiliar with the legend that tells of King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table and their quest to find one of 80 or so examples of the Holy Grail.

Sir Lancelot: OMG! You'll never believe what I picked up in the last SCP Auction!
King Arthur: Wow! Sounds exciting. What it is? A one-of-a-kind item?
Sir Lancelot: Even better! It's a Holy Grail! I was the underbidder on the last 4 that came up for auction, but now I finally have a Holy Grail of my own!
King Arthur: Congrats, buddy! Yeah, I'm looking to upgrade my Holy Grail and there's a nice PSA 4 in the next online auction to close. Like you and I, the auction that's selling it is LEGENDARY!
Sir Lancelot: ROFLMAO!!!
Guinevere: I'd do just about ANYTHING to, I mean "for" anyone brave enough to find the only example of the only card of baseball's first superstar.
Sir Lancelot: Hey, um, I gotta split, Arthur. I'm pretty sure the Holy Grail I just bought was touched up and the images in the auction catalog were doctored since I bought it from SCP. I need to replace it. I think I'll head to the east coast to track down a lead on a Jim Creighton card I heard about. I know, it's no Holy Grail, but still pretty damn cool and far more important than most collectors realize. I might be interested in one of your Holy Grail dupes if I can't get the Creighton. Take good care of that wife of yours, friend, while you still can.
King Arthur: Take good care of my wife? While I still can? WTF???
Sir Lancelot: Um, what I mean is, uh, you never know what can happen in this crazy world. Look at it this way, if anything ever happened to you...or, worst-case, if anything happened to your wife, not like dying or anything, but if she wasn't around any more for whatever reason, at least you'd still have that Holy Grail of yours to keep you company. So you've got that going for you. Which is nice.
King Arthur: Okay, well, see ya, Lancey (said with Bush-like giggle). By the way, what the hell is "baseball" and where is this "east coast" you speak of?
Sir Lancelot (galloping off, voice fading): So long, sucker!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannddddd.....scene.

Anyway, I hope this little mini-play gets my point across: It might make you feel like a king to own what most consider a Holy Grail, but you're one of many, and the guy with the real Holy Grail is probably sleeping with your wife.

Shame on you, Corey!!!

-Ryan

[barrysloate]

He's sleeping with my wife?

[felada]

the problem is that the mantle and wagner transcend the hobby. even non-collectors are aware of them and their value. there are really no 19th century cards that fit that criteria. I would offer up the Duke Delahanty as a possibility to the original post though. Great image, rare but not impossible to acquire, and an iconic player with very few issued cards.

[E93]

I think when you move to 19th century Holy Grail cards, extreme rarity to a much greater degree than the Wagner or Mantle goes without saying. If the Holy Grail must have 50-75 known copies like the Wagner, then you immediately eliminate 99% of the cards that probably first come to mind for the vast majority of 19th century collectors.

I would still go with the Anson, primarily due to being in the most popular and widely collected set and being arguably the top 19th century player. But I probably would not eliminate the Just So Cy Young just because only one is known. That would be a sort of definition of Holy Grail in some respects. And Cy Young is somebody who is widely known outside the hobby, due the award named after him. Most avid baseball fans today probably could not name two 19th century hall of famers for what that is worth.

My rank would be:
1. N172 Anson in uniform
2. Just So Cy Young
3. 4BH Kelly

Honorable mention: N167 Ewing

[E93]

I think requiring some minimum quantity of know examples or collectibility for "Holy Grail" status is counterintuitive to the title.
JimB

[Leon]

Upon further reflection I have to agree that the qualifier of the Holy Grail having a sufficient quantity to be collectible is a bit ironic, at least. So if we are saying "What is your Holy Grail of 19th Century cards, regardless of rarity", which is probably the better way of saying it, then mine becomes the Just So Cy Young. That is the card I would take over any other one, not only from the 19th Century, but any baseball card; period. regards