OT: How about those Twins?

Doug · #1 10-12-2009, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Look, if you're going to have the ready-made excuse that the reason you lost is because of money, why bother turning on the games at all?

That would explain why I haven't been to a Reds game in 5 years. They have already said they are probably going to cut the payroll next season, but they expect people to spend their money to come out an see the same 4th place team from this season? If the team isn't going to make an effort to put out an attractive product, why should I make an effort to go watch them? Short of baseball getting a salary cap by some miracle, why do these owners buy teams if they can't afford to/aren't willing to spend the money to field a competitive team?

nolemmings · #2 10-12-2009, 10:00 AM

The Twins do not need to spend money for its own sake--their payroll will rise this offseason and they presently spend more than last year's darlings in Tampa. Their payroll is slightly less than Texas and not dramatically lower than playoff teams Colorado and St. Louis. They also do not need to be taught anything--they are perennially one of the top three most fundamentally sound teams in all of baseball if not number one. Mistakes happen, and did.

My guess is that the team will spend the winter trying to sign Cabrera and Pavano, while working on Mauer. They will never spend huge dollars on a free agent pitcher, and pitching was not what cost them in the ALDS. They opened the series with a rookie #5 starter because of the way the regular season came down to the wire. In the other two games, the mighty Yankees "amassed" one run off starter Blackburn and two runs off starter Pavano, so I highly doubt some stud free agent would have done any better. The Twins had a 15 game winner who never got to throw and a 10 game winner through June on the shelf.

In sum, the Twins have won their division 5 of the last 8 seasons, and should win it again next year, barring injury and a healthy return for Morneau and Slowey.

chaddurbin · #3 10-12-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

Short of baseball getting a salary cap by some miracle, why do these owners buy teams if they can't afford to/aren't willing to spend the money to field a competitive team?

because baseball is a profitable business. with luxury tax and merchandise revenue sharing, every year these kc, cincy, pittsburgh etc owners are getting a nice big check from mlb. contrary to all these owners with the projections of losing millions, baseball is still very much a thriving business.

and cincy have some decent young talent...if i'm a fan and i hear cutting high salaries from aging guys such as adam harang or scott rolen, i'd probably be excited.

Doug · #4 10-12-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

cincy have some decent young talent...if i'm a fan and i hear cutting high salaries from aging guys such as adam harang or scott rolen, i'd probably be excited.

I doubt the Reds will be able to give Aaron Harang away at this point after he's been terrible the last few years and finished this season on the DL. Rolen won't be going anywhere since they were already out of it when they traded for him and they specifically said it was mostly a move for next season to add veteran leadership and upgrade the third base position. They do have a lot of young talent, but eventually all of those top 10 draft picks should pan out sooner or later. Still, the Reds would basically have to have a season like Tampa Bay did where all of the young players come together at the same time since they will all be traded for more prospects as soon as they become "too expensive".

chaddurbin · #5 10-12-2009, 05:37 PM

doug,

didn't realize the overpriced veterans are on multi-year contracts, i didn't include arroyo because i knew he still has a couple years left.

todd,

when are the twins going to cut bait on delmon young? when 2/3rd of your outfield for much of the year are offense-suppressing carlos gomez and young, it's amazing they still came back to win. i think a few guys played above their heads, cabrera and pavano made some key contributions after the trade...but the twins will be in trouble if they're the big moves this offseason. i thought dunn would've been a good fit in there to replace morneau, high hr/ops lf/1b/dh type but maybe the front office don't want a lefty-heavy lineup for next year.

(disclaimer: i'm basing most of my opinions on watching the twins the last couple weeks in the playoffs...so i wouldn't know intricate details like nick punto is an overachieving scrappy hustling white version of david eckstein or delmon young is exceedingly lucky that's why they want him in the lineup)

calvindog · #6 10-12-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

so i wouldn't know intricate details like nick punto is an overachieving scrappy hustling white version of david eckstein

Quan, it don't get much whiter than Eckstein!

nolemmings · #7 10-12-2009, 06:17 PM

Please look at your facts. The Twins have signed their first pick each year this century, and Cuddyer in 1997. Five of them, counting Cuddyer, made
the big team--Mauer, Perkins, Garza, and Span being the others--and the others are still in the organization. So give me a break when you say they don't build through the draft and that they're too cheap.

Quan, you can't be serious about replacing an MVP like Morneau with Adam Dunn. Morneau made it to 30-100 playing with a cracked bone in his back for two months and missing the last, and unlike Dunn, can carry a glove. And whereas you see these guys as having played over their heads, I see most or all of them on the rise. Kubel is legit, Span may win a batting crown someday, and Mauer and Morneau are of course the real deal. BTW, Gomez no longer starts, so our OF about which you seem to worry is Span (8th in BA with 20 something steals), Cuddyer (once Morneau returns--(.276, 32 HR 94 RBI)) and Kubel (.300, 28 HR 103 RBI), along with Delmon and Gomez.

As for Delmon Young, he is all of 24 years old, barely. He was A.L. co-player of the week the last week of the season (with Kubel). The last 18 games, when Morneau was officially put on the shelf and he got to play every day, Delmon was 30 for 81. That's .370 when every game was a must win, and oh, that's with 4 HR, 14 runs and 18 RBI batting sixth or seventh. That's roughly one-ninth of the season, projecting out at 36 HR, 126 R and 152 RBI. Now I wouldn't expect those numbers year long, but the guy is hardly a slouch slap hitter and can't be considered either a bust or on the downside of his career at 24. Also, whether it factored in or not, the poor guy lost his mother to cancer in May after a long illness, and just may not have had his act together the whole year.

chaddurbin · #8 10-12-2009, 07:50 PM

i'm saying when morneau went down, dunn could've had in a trade (or waiver).

as for young, until he learns some pitch recognition and start taking walks, his hitting is a mirage. not sure if he'll develop some power, but a sub .800ops at a corner outfield spot is not going to cut it. for the twins' sake i hope he has a matt kemp-like breakthrough next year.

tbob · #9 10-12-2009, 08:04 PM

Please look at your facts. The Twins have signed their first pick each year this century, and Cuddyer in 1997. Five of them, counting Cuddyer, made
the big team--Mauer, Perkins, Garza, and Span being the others--and the others are still in the organization. So give me a break when you say they don't build through the draft and that they're too cheap.>

Perkins is horrible and will probably be released over the winter. Garza is gone thanks to Bill Smith's idiocy.
I didn't say they didn't build through the draft, I said they overreach and draft "signable players" for a discount like the Revere kid who the ESPN announcers couldn't believe was taken in the first round. A 5-9 lefty who hits singles, just what the Twins need! (sarcasm)

"MLB Reports Resume: The Twins surprised the heck out of everyone when they drafted Revere with their first round draft pick in 2007, 28th overall. I immediately chastized the Twins for an overdraft for a player that I called, "Brett Gardner with a bigger paycheck." at the time. I figured that they were a little strapped for cash, and therefore picked a player that they could sign for below slot. Revere was projected as a 2nd round pick."

This year they signed a pitcher who had an arm injury and fell like a rock down to the Twins. Thank God they DID sign him because he has potential. I guess the Twins got tired of signing the best players like Jason Varitek because they continually low-balled them. I had a player who played for me in American Legion ball who was drafted by the Twins and he got the typical Twins low ball offer. Only the A's are cheaper in their offers to draftees than the Twins. Todd, they are cheap. I love them too but their owners have long been known for their stingy ways.

nolemmings · #10 10-12-2009, 08:12 PM

Morneau went down in September, so there was for all practical purposes nothing to do. More importantly and as noted, Cuddyer moved to first, Kubel to RF and Delmon to left, and all three were absolutely on fire the rest of the season. There can be zero bitch by Twins fans about production after Morneau went down, except of course for those who still somehow believe it is inexcusable for not beating the Yankees.

As I said, Delmon is on the upswing, ending the season very strong. What you see as his YEAR LONG and somehow permanent condition in terms of OPS is in my view the mirage, as he will improve. BTW, his OPS, as poorly as he played for the first half of the season--thereafter sitting for great lengths until Morneau got hurt-- is still comparable to what was done by Josh Hamilton, and was better than Alex Rios, Tigers Carlos Guillen and rookie (albeit older than Delmon) Clete Thomas, Vernon Wells and BJ Upton.

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