Where have all the Cobb HINDU's gone.....?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Dave

Sounds like you agree with my T206 "6-card" basic denominator theory. Anyhow, let's further consider the Sweet Cap 150,
Factory 649 sub-set. I think this was initially a 36-card design and ALC removed a subject (perhaps, either Cobb or Plank).
Whatever, that's besides the point here. Check-out this comparison of 1st series Detroit players......

Sweet Cap 150 (factory 649)................Brown HINDU

.................................................. Donovan (portrait)
Killian (pitching)..............................Killian (pitching)
O'Leary (portrait)............................O'Leary (portrait)
Schmidt (throwing).........................Schmidt (throwing)

Continuing.........

Sweet Cap 150 (factory 649)................Brown HINDU

Jim Delehanty....traded to Detroit 8/09.......DITTO

Tom Jones....traded to Detroit 8/09...........DITTO


I think the above data illustrates that there was not a "diabolical scheme" NOT to print Detroit players with HINDU or SWEET
CAP 150 (f649) backs.

So then, why did ALC not print Cobb with these T-brands ?

The "Factory #649 factor" mystery thickens ? ?


TED Z

Ted:

The 6 denominator looks like a winner to me. Now, as for Detroit players, the fact there are that many Detroiters on Brown Hindu in series 1 helps solidify my Detroit distribution theory from the Rochester factory #649 I think.

I still wonder if Cobb had an exclusive local or regional promotional or services deal in Detroit that prohibited his appearance on cards destined for that city and environs. And don't forget that newpaper article (at work and can't search for the link right now) previously posted here from 1909 that mentions Cobb and Wagner being in short supply, seemingly therefore in the 150 series cards. I can't recall the town from the article so let's call it East Apple.

Wagner is once thing but Cobb being mentioned in the same breath but obviously not being as rare could be the result of inadvertent selective marketing. Suppose a run of cards was made and obviously a finite number of backs could result, so let's say the Brown Hindu run is done being printed and it has no Green Cobbs on it. That same sheet or run of 35 subjects is then printed for the East Apple market with a more common back but still minus the Green Cobb even though there was no reason to exclude him except in Detroit, it's just there are fronts printed that need to be used, or backs that need fronts that are already composed.

Sweet Caps with Wagner then arrive in East Apple and then they run some other sheets in the 150/350 series for this particular market that have the Green Cobb and we get to the 150/350 portion of things and the Green Cobb is finally hitting the streets down there as well, resulting in the newsman's observation Cobb and Wagner have finally been spotted.

Hope that makes some sense, I am going from memory at the moment but there had to be some geographical distribution arrangement for each run of cards and in some cases specific players and of course, whether a 150 or 350 series marketing plan made sense. Pulling Cobb from the Detroit packs makes little sense unless he was prohibited from appearing or they deliberately held back to sell more cigs but I think we have seen evidence elsewhere they overprinted cards to sell product and did not shortprint them for the same purpose.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong as Dennis Miller used to say.

[rman444]

Ted,

In your opinion, is this a card that has been rebacked and holdered by PSA in error?

[caramelcard]

Thanks for posting that Richard.

Why do folks think this is rebacked? Is there anything that suggests it is?

If it is rebacked, it's by far the best job I've ever seen. Usually, even from a scan you can see a bit of discoloration around the edges or slight adhesive discoloration somewhere throughout the card. Never say never though.



Rob

[tedzan]

You asked...." In your opinion, is this a card that has been rebacked and holdered by PSA in error? "

That is the one and only.....and, yes I am one of several "dinosaur" collectors that are skeptical of this card.

And, the fact that it is graded is immaterial. We just cited several re-backed T206's in the prior posts on this
thread; and, everyone of them has been graded at one time or another.


T-Rex TED

[chaddurbin]

that cobb looks damn good to me, nice and clean...could've been rebacked at the original factory . if it's really rebacked and someone could've done that good a job...then wouldn't it be easier for them to do a known back like cobb bat off/uzit or drum?

[tedzan]

If you haven't seen this Matty that I alluded to in an earlier post, then check it out......

http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_4.html

It makes the Red Cobb/Red HINDU look like a "pretender". You have to realize that professional paper restorers are
working on these altered cards. I know of such a professional that restores artifacts dating back to centuries-old
stuff. You would be amazed at the restorations that they can achieve.


Rob A

With respect to Red HINDU, in an earlier post you noted Brian W's Johnson (pitching) card as being one of a kind.
Trust me, there are more than one known. They might not be as pretty as Brian's....but, it is one of the cards in
the Red HINDU population that exists in multiples.


Ted Z

[tedzan]

So far, fortunately for most of us T206 collectors, the professional restorers that are re-backing T206's are
not that knowledgeable on all T206 front/back combos. This has been evident since the 1990's, when many
of these "fakes" were surfacing.

But, when the day arrives that these scammers are knowledgeable, the hobby will be in "deep do-do".


TED Z

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
" If in theory a bat off example should also exist, given the extreme rarity of all red Hindus (usually only one-two
known examples of known issues) "

I have two responses:

1....The Cobb (bat off) pose (a 350/460 series card) exists with an American Beauty 460 back; therefore, it will
not be found with a Red HINDU back.

2....You are the 2nd guy to imply that Red HINDU's are so, so rare that most subjects exist with only one (or 2)
examples.
My records of these cards indicate that most of the 41 confirmed subjects are more available than just one (or 2).

Hey guys, we need some BVG, PSA ans SGC POP reports on the Red HINDU's.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

I have no opinion of the Cobb with Red Hindu back other than to say the scan looks good to me too. But do not underestimate the skill of a paper restorer, and please be certain that there are rebacked cards residing in holders.

[E93]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I have two responses:

1....The Cobb (bat off) pose (a 350/460 series card) exists with an American Beauty 460 back; therefore, it will
not be found with a Red HINDU back.


TED Z

Ted, my friend,
Then if one would not expect a bat off/red hindu (I misread your original post - point #3 - to presume that we should expect one), and we do have a red portrait example here (with no compelling reason to believe it is not authentic and unaltered), then is there still a problem or mystery still remaining?
JimB

[tedzan]

Thanks for that info on PSA....I had guessed that. Not being a subscriber to PSA, though, I was not
quite sure.

So, it was Beckett that had graded the re-backed red Cobb/DRUM card ? Was that a 2nd go-around
after a prior company had graded it ? ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Now, here is the rest of this "Factory #649 story"....as it pertains to Cobb.

Some time in 1911, the American Lithographic Co. (ALC) issued their Mecca (T201) Double-folder set of 50 cards (100 subjects).

Surprise, surprise....finally, Cobb's image is on a Factory #649 card. Unbelievably though, ALC places Cobb on the flip-side of the
Crawford card. In 1911, Cobb was having the best year of his BB career....batting .420, 248 Hits, and 127 RBI's. Yet, ALC printed
Cobb on the "short side" of their Crawford/Cobb card. The "Factory #649" mystery continues.

I sold my T201 Mecca set 10 years ago (except the Johnson/Street card). Here is the flip-side of my Johnson/Street card to illu-
strate what's going on here (for anyone unfamiliar with these Mecca cards). Can anyone imagine, relegating Cobb to "secondary
status" in any BB card set ?








Would anyone like to post here F/B scans of their T201 Crawford/Cobb card ?


Thanks,

TED Z