Interesting thread on the non-sports board

[uffda51]

I agree completely with Jim VB. With the so-called Heritage Rule 21 in play, it ceases to be an auction and becomes something else entirely. I'm not sure what, but as Elaine Benes once said, "Do I smell something? What am I, hard of smelling? Of *course* I smell something."

[iggyman]

I have a "big" problem with an auction house bidding in its own auction, so I simply DO NOT bid on any Heritage auction! Tough titty!!!

Lovely Day...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by iggyman

I have a "big" problem with an auction house bidding in its own auction, so I simply DO NOT bid on any Heritage auction! Tough titty!!!

Lovely Day...

Well, at least Heritage tells you upfront that they're bidding in their own auctions. That makes them more honest than the rest of them.

By the way, is it true that Frank DiRoberto is working for Heritage now? Anyone know?

[iggyman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Well, at least Heritage tells you upfront that they're bidding in their own auctions. That makes them more honest than the rest of them.

True. But that so called "honesty" gives them "carte blanche" to shill and makes it real easy for them to flip the lot in a future auction/eBay, or on "Grand Slam" (Leon, I'm advertising for ya.....don't forget me when you are on the cover of "Fortune 500").

Lovely Day...

[calvindog]

Iggy, the ones that don't advertise their shill bidding also think it is their birthright to steal, as well. And unlike the other unmentioned auction houses, at least Heritage is not violating the US Criminal Code.

[Leon]

Chris Ivy, the Heritage Director of Sports Auctions, asked me to post this for him. Chris is a good friend of mine and I am happy to do it for him.

"This statement is intended to address the issue of Heritage “house bids”. For the majority of hobby insiders this policy is well known and understood, and we offer our apologies to the many for whom this explanation will be entirely redundant. We will try to keep it short.

Our bidding policy is very clearly stated in every auction catalog printed by Heritage, as well as on our website. Section 21 of the “Terms and conditions of Auction” stipulates “The Auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots.

In order to clear up any misconceptions, we’ll explain the terms of the house bid policy here in explicit detail. Again, our apologies to the many who are already well informed on the topic.

· House bids are always placed at least seven days prior to a catalog auction closing, never later. For example, all Heritage bids were placed in our most recent Signature Sports auction # 716 on 09/24/09. The auction closed on 10/01/09 and 10/02/09. Heritage will not place any other house bids after the seven day point. The seven day point is also when the consignor reserves post.

· Heritage is one of the largest buyers of sports memorabilia in the world. Bids are placed on the books at wholesale prices that we would be willing to purchase this exact material from any dealer or other auction house. These bids are placed without any influence from the current standing of the bids. Heritage has no advantage with the house bids and the full buyer’s premium is paid with the invoice. If Heritage wins the lot, then the consignor is paid the same as if any other bidder had won the lot.

· Heritage does not remove house bids once they have been placed.

· Heritage does own some of the material in our auctions, typically less than 10% of the material. If Heritage places a bid on an item that Heritage owns, then it shows up as a reserve on the item, not a bid.

We hope that this clarification will serve to dispel any false information. The foundation upon which Heritage has established itself as the world’s largest collectibles auctioneer is our integrity, so we take issues such as this very seriously. We hear again and again from our clientele that we are the only auction house they entrust with their absentee bids, and surely there are many members of the board who can attest to having routinely won lots well below their max. Our record speaks for itself. We will not be making any further posts on the matter, but should any board member have any further questions then please feel free to contact me directly via email at CIvy@HA.com."


Regards,
Chris Ivy
Director of Sports Auctions

[Matt]

So both Hunt and Heritage have such a practice that they have disclosed in their terms. Do Goodwin/Legendary/SCP/Mile High/Memory Lane not do it, or do it but don't disclose it? I'd love to get statements from their reps. I believe both REA and B&L are on the record as not engaging in the practice.

[iggyman]

Calvin, so if my wife advertises that she is going to cheat on me, does that make it right? Am I going to admire her honesty (for the record, just in case she reads this one day....."honey, you know I'm only kidding"...........)? Am I so naive to believe that other auction houses don't shill bid? Of course they do, there is just too much $$$ at play. But, I will give them the benefit of doubt until proven otherwise. At the end of the day, this debate is simple for me; is it right for an auction house to shill bid? For me, the answer is No and it is unconditional. Does that mean I better stop bidding in all auctions (from REA on down...)? I would hope the answer is no.

Lovely Day...

[PolarBear]

Good explanation from Heritage but even if it's all done honestly, it still gives the perception of a conflict of interest, and it absolutely helps their bottom line by insuring lots sell for a minimum amount, which maximizes their fees.

Just my opinion, but no auction company should be allowed to bid in their own auctions and in today's highly regulated environment, I'm surprised it's still legal. If the company wants to buy the material outright from the consignor prior to the auction, then do that. Don't play games by bidding on your own auction lots.

[Rob D.]

I'd much rather not know I'm bidding against the house. Thankfully, I think quite a few auction houses respect my wishes.

[calvindog]

Lol

[Wite3]

I have not bid in a Heritage auction in a long time...they shill, supposedly on behalf of the consignor to protect a hidden reserve. I wonder if they go so far as letting the consignor bid themselves?

Joshua

[bbeck]

Barry-a very little known fact that knoogies has a silent k in front of it. Those silent k's are killers.

[calvindog]

Iggy, I'm satisfied with Chris Ivy's explanation. It is transparent and not unfair. That the usual Greek--woops, I mean Goodwin--chorus has not come out to loudly support Heritage also comforts me.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Iggy, I'm satisfied with Chris Ivy's explanation. It is transparent and not unfair.

Jeff,

My reading is a little different. Heritage has a rule in place that allows them to bid in their own auctions. Chris' explanation is transparent and not unfair, but he basically, just narrows down the times when Heritage DOES bid in their own auctions.

So there is still a gap between what they CAN do and what they DO do. I do happen to believe him, but their rules ought to be more narrow in scope and more specific about what they are doing.

[Fred]

The bottom line is that the prices realized in the auctions influenced by house or consignor bidding creates a somewhat inflated view of the prices realized.

Whose to say that the house doesn't put a maximum bid on an item and that the consignor doesn't also bid it up. What happens if the house and consignor bid up the auction as the only two bidders (because the actual market value for the item is less) and the final hammer price (including juice) is used as a bench mark in value for that particular card. It's all bull$hit... lets make some money and to heck with the hobby(ist)... I suppose the above scenario doesn't play out too often but once is too much...

[buymycards]

Here are my thoughts: (As if anyone cares)

1. Bidding on items that are consigned to your auction. Totally unethical. The auction house has the chance to inspect the items and make a purchase offer before they are placed in the auction. Once the auction begins, then it should be hands off.

2. Bidding on your own items that you consigned to an auction house. Totally unethical.

3. An auction house putting their own items in their own auction. OK, as long as they are disclosed as their own items.

4. An auction house bidding on their own items in their own auction. Totally unethical.

5. Employees of an auction house bidding on items in their auction. Totally unethical.

Rick

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Here are my thoughts: (As if anyone cares)

1. Bidding on items that are consigned to your auction. Totally unethical. The auction house has the chance to inspect the items and make a purchase offer before they are placed in the auction. Once the auction begins, then it should be hands off.

2. Bidding on your own items that you consigned to an auction house. Totally unethical.

3. An auction house putting their own items in their own auction. OK, as long as they are disclosed as their own items.

4. An auction house bidding on their own items in their own auction. Totally unethical.

5. Employees of an auction house bidding on items in their auction. Totally unethical.

Rick

Now imagine if auction houses do all of these things -- and don't disclose any of this to its bidders. Suddenly, Heritage doesn't look so bad.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Here are my thoughts: (As if anyone cares)

1. Bidding on items that are consigned to your auction. Totally unethical. The auction house has the chance to inspect the items and make a purchase offer before they are placed in the auction. Once the auction begins, then it should be hands off.

2. Bidding on your own items that you consigned to an auction house. Totally unethical.

3. An auction house putting their own items in their own auction. OK, as long as they are disclosed as their own items.

4. An auction house bidding on their own items in their own auction. Totally unethical.

5. Employees of an auction house bidding on items in their auction. Totally unethical.

Rick

That pretty much sums up my thoughts as well, Rick. Whether it is spelled out in their policies or not, I am simply not comfortable with Heritage placing bids.