Cobb/Edwards and the T206 Honus Wagner

[MW1]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Brian- I am not convinced they ever paid $1800 for that thing. Mr. Edwards was a pack rat/junk collector. He claimed he bought it on a whim. He looks like the kind of guy who might pay $5 for a box lot and hope there is something good inside. But laying out $1800 when he said he really had no idea what he was buying? I don't think so.

Barry has hit the nail squarely on its head.

I still remember the two guys (Ray Edwards and John Cobb) from the 1992 Cincinnati show in which they purchased their T206 Wagner. It was from a dealer a few tables down from where I was set up. The dealer had an entire display devoted to reprints and broder cards and he had a fair number of reproduction T206 Wagners. John had purchased one of these cards and put it in a thick, lucite screwdown. He brought the lucite screwdown by my table and asked me what I thought the card was worth. Brian, who was with me, told him, "Nothing, it's a reprint", to which he replied, "Just you wait. It's going to be worth something someday."

I also remember purchasing a good condition (creased and worn) 1965 Topps Joe Namath from the pair of entrepreneurs and spent a short amount of time looking through a box of rough condition 1960s - 70s comic books and low-grade 1960s baseball cards. Incidentally, when they first brought the box of comic books to our table, they told us it was their "million dollar collection". I remember getting a signed receipt from them for the purchase of the Namath. I don't know if I still have it but if I get some time one of these days, I'll look for it and post an image of it if I can find it. This is significant because in Michael O'Keeffe's book, Ray Edwards denies being at this or any other card show.

Some other details: John was a lot thinner back then and Ray had long, straight hair, kind of like Fabio. We reasoned that he must have used a straight iron to get it to look like that, though we never asked him specifically.

One additional thought. Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson do seem to reach a conclusion about the nature of the Cobb/Edwards reprinted T206 Wagner. Here is what they write at the top of page 154 in The Card:

"If Cobb and Edwards were truly a couple of con artists, as so many of the Network54 collectors and dealers said they were, they surely would have ditched their T206 Wagner years ago and moved on to something more profitable."

[teetwoohsix]

Brian-

Do you really think this guy came out of pocket $1800.00 in the mid to late 1980's for a card of a player he knew NOTHING about?Please............the reason people get fired up about this issue is because it is as fake as it gets-if you have been collecting T206 for so long,and have bought many reprints yourself,I do not understand why you keep wanting everyone to point out the obvious to you.

This has nothing to do with race,other than these two scam artists playing the race card.

Maybe you should make them an offer

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Brian-

Do you really think this guy came out of pocket $1800.00 in the mid to late 1980's for a card of a player he knew NOTHING about?Please............the reason people get fired up about this issue is because it is as fake as it gets-if you have been collecting T206 for so long,and have bought many reprints yourself,I do not understand why you keep wanting everyone to point out the obvious to you.

This has nothing to do with race,other than these two scam artists playing the race card.

Maybe you should make them an offer

Clayton... unlike some people who have spent years on this internet site, I'm a relative newcomer. But that doesn't mean I'm new to card collecting. I read O'Keefe and Thompson's book, but like I said above, I never saw a color picture of the Cobb/Edwards card until today.

One, from the start I said it looked fake, but that there were parts of my initial viewing that gave pause. Some of those things being the claim that $1,800 was paid for it, another being that it had better pop than many of the reprints. None of which to say I was convinced.

Secondly, I cannot from a computer scan see things like glued edges, as Barry Sloate pointed out. I have no idea of the card's thickness, nor the years of rankling with this issue, as many of you on a message board have. You might not know this, but the center of the world doesn't revolve around a message board. It's a meeting place for hardcores.

Third, it might be beneath you to go blow by blow over a card that you have obviously identified as fake. I never asked you to be a part of this conversation, nor to post anything, but you don' have to insult my intelligence or devotion for simply holding a conversation.

Lastly, I wouldn't buy that card for for twenty bucks... actually, I might for the sheer novelty of it... which is my main point in all of this... I read Bill Heitman's "The Monster," O'Keefe/Thompson's "The Card" and Scot Reader's "Inside T206" because I enjoy the set, in all its dry history and weird real-life drama. And while I don't think that a card has to be professionally graded to be authentic, their card can be vetted in a few hours and easiy proven false.

Again, with regards to grading, it was inevitable. I saw it coming a million miles away. For some people, it's the last word. Still, there are enough cards that are fakes or have been rebacked or altered in the T206 set alone to tell me that grading does not an authentic card make.

[PolarBear]

Sounds like they thought, as often happens in society, if they cry "racism" people will start throwing money at them.

When that didn't happen, well of course, that's proof it WAS racism all along.

They expected to get preferential treatment, but were treated like any other person with a fake, so again, because they're black, that's obviously proof of racism.

They knew what they we're doing, and tried working the system. It just hasn't paid off for them yet.

This game gets played in many venues. Here's a similar story.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...1?OpenDocument

[barrysloate]

Goofy story. The Bureau of Printing and Engraving never issued a million dollar bill- that information should have been easy enough to find.

Reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons where Mr. Burns had a trillion-dollar bill.

[toppcat]

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner's font should be enough proof. I can't see why people are still talking about this like there is a possibility it's real.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I find it intriguing that he appeared to have no sense of obligation to find it's rightful owner.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I find it intriguing that he appeared to have no sense of obligation to find it's rightful owner.

Because he knew it wasn't real despite the well-meaning, but ignorant, persona the reporter is trying to create.

The game is: Gin up a grievance, real or not, then play the "victim". Society has been trained to be polite and assume everyone has a valid point, so they generally just do what it takes to make someone happy, even if they don't necessarily believe the grievance is justified.

Society has created a system that rewards the perpetually aggrieved.
These are just examples of people testing the boundaries of the system.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by toppcat

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner's font should be enough proof. I can't see why people are still talking about this like there is a possibility it's real.

Beyond being curious about a story that has gotten a lot of press, and a card which I've never seen, the reason I really wanted to talk about it and revel in it a bit was to see if it matched up with any of my T206 Wagner reprints. I'm kind of giddy that it did. I mean, it's staring you right in the face.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by MW1

Barry has hit the nail squarely on its head.

I still remember the two guys (Ray Edwards and John Cobb) from the 1992 Cincinnati show in which they purchased their T206 Wagner. It was from a dealer a few tables down from where I was set up. The dealer had an entire display devoted to reprints and broder cards and he had a fair number of reproduction T206 Wagners. John had purchased one of these cards and put it in a thick, lucite screwdown. He brought the lucite screwdown by my table and asked me what I thought the card was worth. Brian, who was with me, told him, "Nothing, it's a reprint", to which he replied, "Just you wait. It's going to be worth something someday."

I also remember purchasing a good condition (creased and worn) 1965 Topps Joe Namath from the pair of entrepreneurs and spent a short amount of time looking through a box of rough condition 1960s - 70s comic books and low-grade 1960s baseball cards. Incidentally, when they first brought the box of comic books to our table, they told us it was their "million dollar collection". I remember getting a signed receipt from them for the purchase of the Namath. I don't know if I still have it but if I get some time one of these days, I'll look for it and post an image of it if I can find it. This is significant because in Michael O'Keeffe's book, Ray Edwards denies being at this or any other card show.

Some other details: John was a lot thinner back then and Ray had long, straight hair, kind of like Fabio. We reasoned that he must have used a straight iron to get it to look like that, though we never asked him specifically.

One additional thought. Michael O'Keeffe and Teri Thompson do seem to reach a conclusion about the nature of the Cobb/Edwards reprinted T206 Wagner. Here is what they write at the top of page 154 in The Card:

"If Cobb and Edwards were truly a couple of con artists, as so many of the Network54 collectors and dealers said they were, they surely would have ditched their T206 Wagner years ago and moved on to something more profitable."

This stuff is so interesting. Sad, actually.

For the record, O'Keefe and Thompson's logic crossed my mind too, but of course it is in no way solid deduction. Because if the card sold for anywhere over a quarter of a million dollars, it'd be worth keeping the pursuit alive for 25+ years.

[teetwoohsix]

Brian-

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence-you are obviously a smart guy.
You are correct,you never did ask me to be a part of this conversation-but you are posting on an internet message board,so expect any ol' person to chime in.
You don't need to see the "card's thickness" or the "glued edges" to see the card is a fake-period.
I'm shocked that you would spend so much time playing "devil's advocate" for Cobb/Edwards before you looked at their card.................
I suggested you make an offer on their card because you seem to be trying to convince yourself that maybe,just maybe,it is real.
Have a nice night-

Clayton

[Brian-Chidester]

Hi Clinton... surely things get lost in the translation from our minds to the posting. But, no, I was never trying to wish it or hope it were real.

In reading the old thread on this card, I simply couldn't believe how mad it made people. Since I'd never seen the card in mention, I thought I'd ask, no big deal. And once I saw it, I thought I'd break it down, even if no one else was interested. Trust me, it looked fake to my eyes, but I was just looking for that one thing that said, "Okay, it LOOKS fake, but here's the kicker." Not an eye thing, but something concrete. When I saw that font next to my own 1987 reprint, it was concrete... no T206 was printed with that font.

It might have been indulgent, but with so much fury, I suppose I pushed the issue a bit.

[Brian-Chidester]

Sorry, Clayton, not Clinton...

[teetwoohsix]

No hard feelings Brian,in fact,I admire your drive.
But I,like many,get very offended by these two individuals.They want the meal ticket,and will burn anyone who thinks it may be a real Wagner.Thats the pathetic part.
Regardless of how many veteran collectors,hobbyists,graders,etc. tell them it's fake-they refuse to accept it.Now everyone who says it's fake is a racist.
Look at what they say on page 154-"It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket"...............that about sums it up.

Take care

Sincerely,Clayton

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

No hard feelings Brian,in fact,I admire your drive.
But I,like many,get very offended by these two individuals.They want the meal ticket,and will burn anyone who thinks it may be a real Wagner.Thats the pathetic part.
Regardless of how many veteran collectors,hobbyists,graders,etc. tell them it's fake-they refuse to accept it.Now everyone who says it's fake is a racist.
Look at what they say on page 154-"It's like we won the lottery and we can't cash the ticket"...............that about sums it up.

Take care

Sincerely,Clayton

Funny thing is, I don't have a drive in this instance. I was just surprised at the rhetoric when I read the old thread, and decided to puh the issue to see what this was all about. I mean, I'd known about their card for several years now, but just hadn't seen it and didn't know why it caused such anger.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Brian-Chidester

In reading the old thread on this card, I simply couldn't believe how mad it made people. Since I'd never seen the card in mention, I thought I'd ask, no big deal. And once I saw it, I thought I'd break it down, even if no one else was interested. Trust me, it looked fake to my eyes, but I was just looking for that one thing that said, "Okay, it LOOKS fake, but here's the kicker." Not an eye thing, but something concrete. When I saw that font next to my own 1987 reprint, it was concrete... no T206 was printed with that font.

It might have been indulgent, but with so much fury, I suppose I pushed the issue a bit.

Brian, here is the number one rule of Net 54: if there is evidence of a fraud and it is committed by a friend of a large percentage of the board, then there is a muted, "boys will be boys" response. If there is evidence of a fraud, no matter how small, which is committed by a non-friend then the pitchforks and torches come out.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brian, here is the number one rule of Net 54: if there is evidence of a fraud and it is committed by a friend of a large percentage of the board, then there is a muted, "boys will be boys" response. If there is evidence of a fraud, no matter how small, which is committed by a non-friend then the pitchforks and torches come out.

Heheh. Good to know...