Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by bijoem

Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

[Leon]

Thanks Jeff..

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

I see your point about most being dirty....
but I don't share your viewpoint of an 'all' or 'none' when it comes to refusing to do business with an auction house.

They may all be dirty.... I really don't know....
but I reserve the right to pick and choose the grade of dirty that I don't like most

Right now - there are two auction houses that I avoid. They've turned my stomach at some point.... so, I really don't care to send them a check. Its not etched in stone, its just how I feel right now.

There may be auction houses that do or have done worse things. But these two managed to find my stomach-turning grade of dirty.

[MikeS]

All I can say is I have known Bill Mastro since I was a kid and learned everything about the industry from him (The good and the bad...just to same some BS replies on this post). Even through all the bad publicity I still chose Mastro Auctions for my consignments for the same reason Jeff mentioned in his posts. The fact is its human nature to dwell on a certain negative instance, but one still needs to measure the good from the past. The professionalism, knowledge and service was impeccable and when my consignment of the highest graded Walter Mails game goes for under $10K....I have a hard time believing shill bidding was common practice. Bottom line is...you go with the one who brings the consignor the best terms, has the largest membership to get your item in front of them and one who has the knowledge and service to boot

[Jim VB]

Just to be clear, Mike...

You've known Mastro for years.
You're aware of all that's been said about them.
You are AGREEING with Jeff.

And you rolled that all together and decided to stick with...Legendary?

[jcmtiger]

Mike S, I have known Bill Mastro for years and he did a lot of good things for the Hobby. I have read all the negative input from past posts and press reports. I am willing to wait until all information is ruled on. Also he and Rob Lifson now at Robert Edwards Auctions, at one time worked very closely together in the 70's and 80's didn't they? This is the Auction House that everyone likes right now. If I am wrong about that , let me know. If the statement about Rob Lifson is wrong, then I will retract it.

Joe

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Also he and Rob Lifson now at Robert Edwards Auctions, at one time worked very closely together in the 70's and 80's didn't they? This is the Auction House that everyone likes right now.

Joe

Are we supposed to get something from that? I'd like to hear if somone has an issue with REA or Rob Lifson. From all I've gathered, he and his operation are as squeaky clean as they come in this business. Rob Lifson has been an FBI consultant and a Justice Department expert witness on pretty much all issues of concern in this hobby/business. His statements of ethics and practice are by far the strongest I've seen in this area.

If someone has something different to say, I'd like to hear it. I'm not interested in loose insinuations.

Cheers,
Blair

[three25hits]

MikeS,

Good luck getting paid. (a)

Brian



a. I say this to anyone consigning an item to any house

[jcmtiger]

Brian, did you have a problem getting paid from a Mastro Auction?

Joe

[MikeS]

Jim-

Just saw your post and yes...I am aware of all the bad rap on Masto, I agree with Jeff and I still chose Legendary (Mastro at the time). The fact is they did a great job with my item back at the live event following the National back in 2008 with regards to exposure/marketing and didn't have a problem getting paid. The reason why I chose them is they showed the most interest in representing my item and they truely wanted my business. I know that software has changed over the years and I was never a fan of the two option bid..."my max bid" and "straight line bid" for this confusion would hurt the buyer and benefit the house. I know some sites still use this method and I know bidders who thought they were leaving the max bid, but straight lined it instead and entered into a binding contract. Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus. Look at the auction format you are participating in and bid accordingly. In conclusion, last time I checked this wasn't the most ethical hobby out there. After reading many posts, I'm sure no one in this forum has ever misrepresented their item in a business transaction (oh I didn't see that spider crease), or took advatage buying something off somone who didn't know what they had. Is that ethical.....no...but it happens.

[three25hits]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Brian, did you have a problem getting paid from a Mastro Auction?

Joe

Nope I don't consign to them so I have no fears for myself. I do have a problem with anyone having a problem getting paid what they are due, when they are due it, by whoever they submit to.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby? By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

ready when you are...

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Bicem

ready when you are...

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

[barrysloate]

Here's one way an unethical auction house operates:

Auction houses get to know the bidding habits of their best customers, and know that certain whales, particularly those who are working on top registry sets, will almost never stop bidding on a rare high grade card, say a "1 of 1." And they pretty much know that if they bump a bid on one of those cards their customer will certainly come back and bid again. These bidders, or marks, will never win any of these pieces unless a world's record price is achieved.

I know often the board is incredulous when they see a high grade vintage card selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and don't believe the transaction ever took place. And there is always a board member who seems to know who won it and therefore assumes the transaction was legitimate. So the problem is not whether the card sold, which it did, but how it got to that stratospheric level.

That is why so many of the whales leave the hobby rather abruptly. At some point they discover how they were treated and they drop out. And this has been going on for a very long time.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's one way an unethical auction house operates:

Auction houses get to know the bidding habits of their best customers, and know that certain whales, particularly those who are working on top registry sets, will almost never stop bidding on a rare high grade card, say a "1 of 1." And they pretty much know that if they bump a bid on one of those cards their customer will certainly come back and bid again. These bidders, or marks, will never win any of these pieces unless a world's record price is achieved.

Exactly Barry...is there any other reason to shill a 1978 Topps baseball set?

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Jeff,

With the auction house I work for I've never witnessed any shilling, alterations or knowing misrepresentation of any item. We take pride in what we do. We are hopeful that hobbyists will take stock in us and have confidence that they are taking part in an honest auction. Those who know me personally know I wouldn't take part or stay silent on any questionable activities.

And this is exactly why Huggins and Scott is at the top of may favorites. I have never heard anything bad about them and honestly, I have never had one bad feeling that something might be wrong. I can't say that about most Auction Houses.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby?

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud but go ahead and bid with the other guys who I also believe have committed past fraud.

Obviously, auction houses are not the only way to obtain cards, but they do seem to have about 90% of what I want to collect.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Bicem

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud

Um, watch your tenses there, boy. I'd hate for you to think that all is well going forward.

[Bicem]

sorry, ongoing fraud.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

They are young yet..... give them some time.

[HRBAKER]

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

Apparently not. This sort of mentality is what allows shill bidding to go on unfettered: "oh well, I paid what I thought the card was worth so it's all good." But it's not all good if the card could have been had for less than your max bid and for less than what you thought the card might be worth. This is why it is an auction and not a tag sale. Also, when a card is shilled to a level beyond what the card would have sold for minus the fraud, the next time that card comes up for auction either in that grade or a different one, a false precedent has been set. Even if no direct fraud occurs in the latter auction, the impact of the prior fraud is real.

And sadly, why am I saying this....again? How many more years do we need to hear the basic concepts of Fraud 101? This is pretty basic stuff, right?

[HRBAKER]

Jeff you and I are in agreement and that was the point of my post.

[Bicem]

what's the solution Jeff?

[HRBAKER]

The only solution on a local level is if you think you are getting hosed, don't get in the pool.

[barrysloate]

The solution is for law enforcement to go after these auction houses, and if they are convicted of fraud, to penalize them heavily.

As far as whether or not to bid, I don't have an answer. Certainly Jeff is correct that if you leave a ceiling bid and the lot gets to the limit due to shilling, it's not acceptable at all. You should only have to pay one increment above the last real bid. Period. And if one were to boycott all auction houses where even the possibility of fraud exists, then it's time to find a new hobby.

[MikeS]

Well I always thought if you bid with your head and your budget in mind, you wouldn't overpay. Of course many will overbid because they cherish and want the item for their collection so they set a high personal expectation. I think most people still live in that "last 5 sec" rule of Ebay where u plug in a high spend and most of the time its concludes lower than your bid....in instances where you win. Most sites offer the 30min rule and this is where you have control of your own destiny. Plugging in a max bid with two weeks to go is the bidders fault if their intention is to get the item lower than what they bid. I understand most peoples gripe and true it's unethical, but I haven't seen an indictments so far. What blows my mind about "shill bids" is that in the end the buyer still got an authentic lot. I went to the CCorner after reading many of member posts, but this site still remains in business and completely makes the industry look bad with all those great autographs and Morales certs. People are still bidding on these and this is true fraud, but no one seems to care except poke fun. Think its time to drop the scapegoats and move on. If anything, bidders and collectors should come away from this to be weary, do your research and find the best house or site that serves your needs. If you don't like another site/house...then don't use them, but don't tell others what not to do unless you have a personal instance to share and focus on the good traits of the company you like.