Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[calvindog]

Greg, shill bidding is provable without bidding records if the circumstantial evidence is there; proving it is also helped with co-conspirator or other witness testimony. As for the altered cards in our hobby, the first thing that I suppose has to happen is that the people who are doing it need to be outed as do the sellers of altered material. Some people have been willing to do it, others won't

Finally, if a top-all bid is placed, the fact that the bidder is willing to pay that amount does not in any way mitigate the fraud committed by a shill bidder who places a bid below that ceiling, nor does the top-all bid equate to what the card is properly valued. Only when there are legitimate bids placed in an auction can such a true figure be reached. Of course, if a collector makes an arms-length offer for such a card at that price then it's a different story, but we're not talking about that here.

[barrysloate]

Shill bidding is unquestionably bad, but if I were asked the one thing I am most concerned with, that would have the most deleterious effect on the hobby, it would be altered cards that have made their way into holders. I would view that as close to epidemic, and would put shill bidding a distant second with regard to what collectors should be worried about. I think the grading industry needs a complete overhaul. I don't like it.

And I'm not talking about the VG card that sells for $100. I'm talking about the cards that make it into the set registry collections. Oh Lordie....

[botn]

Jeff,

Think it is much easier to prove a graded card is trimmed or recolored, for example, and trace it back to the submitter than to prove shill bidding, even with a co-conspirator's testimony.

With the quantity of cards which have been graded that should not have been graded, I think we are talking about an enormous amount of money. I know of two cards which combined sold for over 3 million dollars that are not worth a small fraction of that. How many 1977 Topps set would have to be shilled to get to 3 million dollars?

[barrysloate]

I too know of cards easily worth six figures that are holdered by one of the "respected" grading services, and they are bogus. They have had major restoration. And I know the owner is devastated. This was something he put away for retirement and now that money is no longer there. He was a victim of a major fraud. It's a really bad situation, and when it becomes public this industry will be in for a very rude awakening.

[botn]

Barry,

The public has had many rude awakenings and just go right back to sleep.

[calvindog]

Shill bidding is actually incredibly easy to prove if you have subpoena power and the target does not destroy every single bidding record. Bidders that do not exist or bidders who had no idea they were placing a bid are about as strong proof as you need to prove the fraud.

As for shill bidding v. alteration, we can talk about what is worse all day long but is there a prohibition against outing and fixing both? I don't have a problem speaking my mind about this stuff and naming names; you guys should as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What difference would naming names make? These guys don't sell directly, they consign, and the auction houses protect them.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What difference would naming names make? These guys don't sell directly, they consign, and the auction houses protect them.

Shining a light on the people that do this sort of stuff can only be a good thing. And I suspect that anyone who knows who the card doctors are also knows which auction houses are protecting them. Shine a light and watch the cockroaches run.

[botn]

Jeff,

So shill bidding is not so easy to prove when bidder records have been destroyed. That was my point. Testimony alone does not convict.

I was not saying that there had to be a choice but pointing out it is easier to prove a card has been trimmed not that it is any less important to clean up shill bidding.

Most of us do not have subpoena power.

[smtjoy]

Interesting thread.

IMO shilling is happening a lot more than alterations, I have alone been shilled in over 10 ebay auctions in the last couple years that I know of, it was easier to tell when bidding records were not private on ebay but you can still tell today if the seller does not cover all their tracks. I was amazed at how often it happened. I can only imagine adding in all the auction houses how high that number would be. I also think the pressure of getting top prices for the consignor would be enough reason for auction houses to do it because it can only lead to more consignments down the road plus more cash for them.

That said I think alterations are a much more serious issue to the hobby. Take a guy like Scott Succor who was submitting thousands of trimmed cards to PSA, getting 2/3 of his subs turned down for that but still getting 1/3 past the graders. For one I cant believe PSA didnt do something about that as they had to know what was going on and thats just one guy. He was only doing micro trimming, what about the real experts in alterations of cards, now these scare me. The people who can take a T206 cobb 4-5 and turn it into a 7-8, now thats scary and is a reason I much prefer the lower graded cards with wear. Not really sure what can be done here because if these cards are getting past the graders, its trouble.

While people get upset and lose money on shilling, they only do so because they were willing to spend the money in the first place. I dont think most of them will be leaving the hobby but hopefully they get smarter. To me the alterations have the damage that can get people to leave the hobby, if your prized card in your collection that happens to be graded turns out to be altered, ouch. You lose money and you are left with something you do not even want.

[onlychild]

I'm not an expert on altered cards but would appreciate learning more as to how the doctors work on alterations and, just as importantly, work with the auction house heads.

Jeff, that is a lose/lose scenario. As you know, I am a card doctor and regardless of what anyone thinks, to the best of my knowledge not one of my altered cards are in the hobby. If you try and explain in a public forum or anywhere on the net for that matter, how cards are doctored, you are just giving lessons or more ideas to the criminal aspect. Only so much can be explained, but then you get ripped for not going into enough detail. I think the best is to show what can be done and/or what to look for. One on one, would be the best way to learn and more details can be given.

I enjoy getting auction catalogs, just to see what cards IMO have been potentially altered. Of course it's impossible to tell without the card in hand (even then it can be tough) but if you have altered enough cards, you can get a pretty good idea. Just my opinion but I think it's a plague and far more prevalent than shilling. Perhaps an auction company can become more trusted if they had an internal expert checking for possible alterations...then rejecting them if discovered or suspected.

I've warned a few auction companies about cards that have or may have been altered...Mastro more than once. They either don't care or have just banned me. REA is definitely the best and most concerned...that's just not lip service by Lifson, he genuinely cares.

If I'm not mistaken haven't you been banned from Mastro/Legendary as well? We should form a club.

I don't think it happens too often that collectors buy cards from auction houses and find out they are doctored. Besides do they really want to know and face a potential large loss? It only becomes a factor or devastating when the card is outed as a fake, restored, doctored.

Then you have those who think it's perfectly alright to send a card and pay a "restorer" to remove ink spots, residue, tape etc. These are some of the same collectors that are or have been the most vocal when it comes to card alterations. It's perfectly fine if their card can get a bump or two though as long as someone else is doing it and they are paying for the service.

As Greg so perfectly stated, "The public has had many rude awakenings and just go right back to sleep." I just hope we don't wake up and discover the the root of the problem is not with the auction companies.

Okay, I've rambled enough (LOL).

Kevin

[calvindog]

Kevin, why not out the cards that you see in an auction catalog that you believe might be altered? What's the downside to that?

And I'm not surprised that Mastro would ignore your communications about altered cards; after all, they have no problem presenting altered items without full disclosure (until caught).