Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

camlov2 · #1 02-14-2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Greg/Mike: I didn't mean to use ebay as a sole example for resale. Poor resale prices in consecutive auctions for the same cards is evident as well, the only difference being lack of fraud in the latter auctions.

A lower price in a second auction doesn't mean that some type of fraud occured in the first. It is of course possible but not a given.

I would guess that many times two people bid against each other driving a price much higher then expected. Every so often the winner choses to resell quickly due to regret, need of money.....

With one of the two main bidders now out of the picture the same item is likely to sell for much less.

Rich Klein · #2 02-14-2010, 06:47 AM

Didn't you see my smiley face after my comment

But on certain cards; restoring them to 1-3 is actually an easier gig; for if you're a grading company and the card is like $1K and in bad condition; do you automatically question said card like you would a higher grade example.

And, in the 1980's, we had really good 1953 Topps Mantle fakes running around North Jersey, and the funny thing was those cards would be vg/ex and not better (I think there were some other cards as well). But the reason the fakes worked so well WAS that they were in vg/ex condition and if you were a store owner, would you think that such a card was faked?

Regards
Rich

Exhibitman · #3 02-14-2010, 07:32 AM

Good points, Kevin and Jeff.

Jeff, no surprise on the records destruction front. It is one of the gaping holes in the legal system, IMO. I'm sure you know that corporate counsel in fact create and implement record destruction policies for their companies. If done as part of a standard practice with no claims pending against them it is treated by the courts as acceptable conduct. The fact that it plays right into the hands of the crooks out there is brushed under the rug.

I did want to respond to one point about altered cards and third party graders (TPG). I can confirm one instance of TPG repurchases of bad cards: SGC bought back a bad ex-mt graded T206 Waddell portrait I owned. I had questions about the card once I got it and took it with me to the National, where I got Dave to take a look at it. He agreed it was erroneously encapsulated and immediately offered to buy it back. I understand PSA is a bitch to get any admission of error from--fortunately I've never had to go down that path personally--but I cannot even get them to fix errors in their boxing card registry checklists, and I wrote the catalog...

E93 · #4 03-04-2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Good points, Kevin and Jeff.

I understand PSA is a bitch to get any admission of error from--fortunately I've never had to go down that path personally...

The one time I had a problem, it was solved very quickly. I noticed a slight problem on the back of a $7000 high grade CJ card that, in my view, was the result of alteration. I e-mailed Joe Orlando about it and sent scans. He asked me to send the card in for re-evaluation. On their analysis, they agreed with my assessment. Within 24 hours of receiving the card and upon our discussion about how to rectify the situation, he sent me a check for $7000. I could not have asked for better customer service and problem solving.

JimB

calvindog · #5 02-14-2010, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camlov2

A lower price in a second auction doesn't mean that some type of fraud occured in the first. It is of course possible but not a given.

I would guess that many times two people bid against each other driving a price much higher then expected. Every so often the winner choses to resell quickly due to regret, need of money.....

With one of the two main bidders now out of the picture the same item is likely to sell for much less.

Theoretical possibilities can explain away most fraud; however, statistically when you need a 1 in 10 thing to occur 400 times in a row it becomes an impossibility. Welcome to the world of Mastro.

onlychild · #6 02-14-2010, 04:08 PM

Quote:

But on certain cards; restoring them to 1-3 is actually an easier gig; for if you're a grading company and the card is like $1K and in bad condition; do you automatically question said card like you would a higher grade example.

Humm....Getting a 1-3 to a 4-5 is usually very easy, since the lower grade cards have more problems to work with and edges/corners are usually not a primary concern. Altering a card to the 7/8 range is much more difficult. It's tedious micro-type work, usually on the corners and edges, that has little room for error.

That being said IMHO there are more high grade altered cards in the auction houses because that's where the high grade cards are. I think the altered low to mid grades can be sold more efficiently on eBay. Of course, I'm referring only to graded cards. Raw cards are the wild west.

I would hope that grading companies question all cards equally and give a little extra attention to the top tier cards. I'm not really sure if that happens though.

JamesGallo · #7 02-14-2010, 04:40 PM

I will respond to this in sections.

I feel there are a handful of good auction houses out there that include but are not limited to
REA
B&L
Sloate
Old Judge
Huggins and Scott
Goodwin

I don't think I have heard anything bad about any of the above and I am sure there are a few others I can't think of right now.

That being said I will NOT bid in any Legendary auction and they have a nice group of cards for a set I am working on, but they won't get my money.

There are certain things that I being in the collectible selling business for 15+ years will never bend on and ethics are #1. If I sell something and it is not right I will make it right in whatever way is needed. Mastro/Ledgendary has made too many "mistakes". I wasn't active then nor did I bid in or consign, so I was not hurt directly, and yet still they will never get my money no matter what.

As a side note I don't know if there is anything one of a kind that I have to own, but I have passed on such items in my other collecting fields based on this same principle so if there was a card that fell into this category I have no doubt I would pass on it.

As for the shilling/card altering/restoration arguments, I am not sure which is worse, and I think it would depend on the issue at hand.

If you trim a $5 card to make it a $500, restore a card or otherwise work on it they all would impact the value. To me making something worthless into something of high value would be high on my list of worst offenses. Perhaps re-backing a card or doing some other type of alteration. The only time I have dealt with this was on a lot of high end 60's rookies cards that were trimmed in the 1990's. It is likely that they were VG or EX cards trimmed to NM. The cards still had value but there was a significant loss on funds.

I also wonder if the number of bad cards in holders is directly related to when they were graded. I know I will never buy an older PSA holder as I do feel they are better about catching alternations now then they were 10 years ago.

Shilling is something we as a bidder can't know about unless it is made public. If you are educated about something you are buying hopefully that will help you weed out potential problem cards. I looked at a card in a major auction and had doubts about one of the edges, I choose not to bid as a result and am much happier for not having to deal with potential problems. Maybe the card was ok, but I wasn't willing to take the chance and I wasn't confident enough to make a statement about the card to the auction house.

The system has a lot of problems but most areas of business do, and policing them is tough at best. I do find it insulting that Coaches Corner is still around. The FBI continues to make a big deal about fraud in this hobby yet they are still allowed to operate. To me that is a pick and choose, we are going to go after Mastro because more money is involved but CC is still allowed to operate. It's total BS and as with any crime IMO it comes down to money. If you defraud someone out of $10,000 it is not treated the same as if you got screwed out of $500,000. That isn't right but I don't ever see that changing.

I think the best thing we can hope for as far as auction house honesty is that a shake up occurs and that good people continue to deal with good houses, hopefully over time the good and stronger houses will survive and the Mastro's will fade away.

One last note is that I will give an auction house a chance to make up for their errors and mistakes, but much like life, if there are several issues or if the same issues continue, then I will no longer deal with them. At this point I have about 2-4 places I will not buy anything from and another couple that I look at with caution. Beyond that I feel that I am participating in an honest auction and until proven or even suggested otherwise I have no reason to worry.

James G

barrysloate · #8 02-15-2010, 10:02 AM

The Legendary Auction is an hour old and the Wagner is already past 100K. Don't understand that kind of bidding strategy.

e107collector · #9 03-04-2010, 12:10 PM

Does anyone happen to know what the T-206 Wagner ended in the Legendary auction?

Thanks,
Tony

Gary Weatherhead · #10 03-04-2010, 01:39 PM

In round numbers $220 K.

Best
Gary

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