My T206 Plank theory....New Follow-up info

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

Why do think the American Caramel Co. didn't mind that Plank was used in:

E95 Philadelphia Caramel
E93 Standard Caramel
E98 Anonymous
E104 Nadja
T204 Ramly

etc. etc.

Rob

[FrankWakefield]

As for the Ramly cards, they came out of Massachusetts. They were distributed regionally, as best as I can gather. They don't depict many of the Pirates, Phillies, or White Sox. Their distribution in the Philadelphia area may have been minimal to non-existent. A fellow can't really complain about something unless he knows the something is happening.

[caramelcard]

Philadelphia Caramel was definitely in the same region and even in the same "racket."

If this fellow was going to control the rights to Plank's image used on premiums, you think he would first try to control it in the same town with other candy companies.

However, maybe ACC had a deal of some sort with Phil. Caramel and Standard Caramel (Lancaster, PA) and Lafean was more concerned with a tobacco premium which would reach a larger amount of consumers?

Anyways, I hope the conversation keeps going.

Rob

[Kenny Cole]

Sporting Life was issued circa 1910-11. At a minimum, it was circulated in the same area as were the caramel issues of the time,including Philadelphia.

M116 Planks aren't that hard to find. For that reason, I don't think it is possible that the American Caramel Co. was unaware of that issue. I suppose it is possible that the thinking was that an M116 Plank wasn't a threat because it wasn't issued with candy, but I am sceptical of that idea because that would run counter to the theory that the American Caramel Company stopped the production of his tobacco cards to preserve its monopoly on his image.

Sporting Life probably wasn't issued until 1910 to the best of my knowledege. However, neither were Plank 350 backs. I'm not seeing that American Caramel would shut down all of the tobacco productions in 1909 and 1910, but do nothing to shut down the magazine issues if the thought was to have some sort of monopoly on Plank. I'm not shooting at anyone, but I see this as a fly in the ointment insofar as the proffered theory goes.

Kenny Cole

[Theoldprofessor]

Ted:

From one of your earlier posts:

"The Director of this College back then was Daniel Franklin Lafean."

Lafean wasn't "The Director" of Gettysburg. He was a Director, one of many who apparently had some official connection to the college, though not as important as Trustees, of which the college had many. The President of the college during that period was one Harvey Washington McKnight. As far as I can tell, he was an evengelical Christian whose interests did not go much beyond college and pulpit.

Of interest in another way. Plank may never have pitched against Matty, but he and Chief Bender faced each other several times. Go to

http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Rep...=-1&ID=Ar00500

to get a box score of one such game.

By the way, "Bender" really is Albert ("Chief") Bender, and not his brother James. Albert was a regularly enrolled student at the Carlisle School in 1901, James was not.

Evidence ... ? From

http://home.epix.net/~landis/bender.html

"Here's the info for Bender from Nat'l Archives' student file #1327, folder 5453, taken from a database compiled by Genevieve Bell:
Charles A. Bender
Address: White Earth Agency
Attended Carlisle 7/5/1896 - 5/14/02
Father: Albert Bender (German), Mother: living, fullblood Chippewa.
height at arrival: 5'3"
Weight: 101 lbs.
Graduated class of 1902. Captain of baseball team 1901-02.

His brother, James Bender attended Carlisle 9/5/1896-3/8/1900. He was expelled in 1900; cause unknown. His file is #1327, student folder 377."

I suspect you're on to something with the dispute between American Caramel and American Tobacco, but, as you're probably sick of hearing by now, there must be more to it than that.

Bob

[tedzan]

Rob

Correct me if this is wrong....American Caramel (E91 and E90-1) sets were the first major COLOR issues of BB cards in the 20th
Century. The 1st series of both these sets were issued in 1908.

Remember, the key to understanding my Plank theory applies to the year "1909". American Litho. issued the T206 1st series (150
series) during the Summer of 1909.

The other BB card sets issued in 1909 are NADJA (E92), Dockman, and E98 (Anonymous). Neither of these 3 sets include Plank.
Plank is included in the following 1910-11 sets......

NADJA (E104-1)
Philadelphia Caramel
Standard Caramel (E93)
T208 Cullivan's Fireside


RAMLY presents an interesting situation. When you compare RAMLY with the E90-1 set and the T206 set (again, emphasis on 1909)
the two latter issues are virtually void of Boston (AL) players in their 1st series issued in 1908 and 1909, respectively.

By 1910, T206's (350 series) included numerous A's players that were not in their 1909 issue. Also, by 1910, the last series of the
E90-1 set included Boston players that were not included in their earlier series.

I do not think that this is mere coincidence. It is evident that there was contention between these three BB card companies as to
which one in 1909 was going to portray certain BB players in their sets.



TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

T208s are regional, too. New York.

And there wouldn't be a total void of Plank images on stuff. The image would have to appear on something before someone might complain about it.

As for the Sporting Life stuff is a step toward news coverage in their publication. I don't think there was an effort of total control on Plank images, no one was concerned about his photo appearing in a newspaper. Sporting Life didn't mail their little cards out until after the white border tobacco cards hit the scene, and they didn't come with candy or tobacco; they weren't selling a product.

Anyone ever consider that these cards may have been some of the first cards that were actually 'bought', instead of coming with a product??

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

T208s are regional, too. New York.

And there wouldn't be a total void of Plank images on stuff. The image would have to appear on something before someone might complain about it.

As for the Sporting Life stuff is a step toward news coverage in their publication. I don't think there was an effort of total control on Plank images, no one was concerned about his photo appearing in a newspaper. Sporting Life didn't mail their little cards out until after the white border tobacco cards hit the scene, and they didn't come with candy or tobacco; they weren't selling a product.

Anyone ever consider that these cards may have been some of the first cards that were actually 'bought', instead of coming with a product??

I looked into the Sporting Life connection a while back (thread is here somewhere) and the was no correlation between those cards and T206 rarities or short prints.

[George]

Here is the protagonist in this fascinating discussion.

[Brian-Chidester]

Again, I still can't understand how Plank could have been printed in the 150 and 350 series and still be that rare. Neither "Magie" or Wagner make it to the 350 series.

Even if American Caramel tries to stop ATC in 1909, Plank still makes it into the next series.