Modifications to Vintage Baseball Card Sets' Year(s) of Issue

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Brian-Chidester

As for T215-1, I've only seen around twenty different cards, either through online scans, at card shows or in auction catalogues. I honestly don't know about background variations, as each series 1 card I've seen from the Victory set has been exactly like its T206 counterpart. I may have jumped the gun on saying that series was another T206 back, as I really haven't studied it enough to know for sure. Gut shot guess.

First off you just need to get your series straight, otherwise you have a good argument (one I don't buy, but a good one). T215-1 is Red Cross....Had you talked about Victory I would have responded in kind.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by Leon

First off you just need to get your series straight, otherwise you have a good argument (one I don't buy, but a good one). T215-1 is Red Cross....Had you talked about Victory I would have responded in kind.

Sorry, I hadn't had that second cup of coffee yet. Red Cross. I had the Zack Wheat T214 in my head when I wrote that.

[judsonhamlin]

Having been a 206 collector for two decades+, my gut tells me that Brian is right. It seems that a decision was made by Burdick to lump American Beauty, Broadleaf,, Piedmont, etc, but not the 1910 issues of Coupon and Red Cross. That, in my opinion, was wrong. I think that seeing subsequent issues of those cards where none existed from 206 clouded his opinion as to the initial release. T207 Red Cross is "lumped" with the Recruit/Napoleon/Broadleaf backs; why not the same for T206/T215-1?

[rhettyeakley]

Leon, do you have a scan of the T215-1 tht has the different background?

The thing kind of going against the T215-1 as being part of T206 to me has always been the fact that the back states "100 subjects" which is not seen on any other T206 back. Other than that I had never noticed any differences between the T206 and T215-1 card fronts and assumed they were likely another variation of the T206 "set"

-Rhett

[teetwoohsix]

I think you are right Rhett.I think the 100 subjects (or 100 Designs,as shown on the back) and maybe even the Factory No.10,5th.Dist.,N.J., is what separated them from being an actual extension of the T206 set.

[toppcat]

Well, there is no excuse for the Standard Catalog or grading co's to get dates wrong on Old Judges anymore since the definitive reference on them was published last year. I suspect the next big book will reflect this.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Leon, do you have a scan of the T215-1 tht has the different background?

The thing kind of going against the T215-1 as being part of T206 to me has always been the fact that the back states "100 subjects" which is not seen on any other T206 back. Other than that I had never noticed any differences between the T206 and T215-1 card fronts and assumed they were likely another variation of the T206 "set"

-Rhett

Hi Rhett... like I said to Leon up above, it was more of a gut-shot guess on my part, as I've done no real hard research on T215-1. It's just that every card I've seen over the years has matched its T206 counterpart exactly for the fronts. Leon's assertion that there are background variations certainly changes things.

As for stating that "100 subjects" were offered, I don't see that as necessarily deterring T215-1 from being a back variant in T206. Other tobacco backs in T206 don't say how many subjects, but they offer far fewer total than 100. In fact, there isn't one uniform back that offers all 524 fronts.

[Leon]

I don't own this T215-1 Griffith anymore(and took the T206 scan from ebay). The T215-1 belongs to another board member but it was in my collection for years. You can see the background shading be different......however it is more pronounced (much more) on different cards. I am not sure this isn't just a printing plate issue though. Even regardless of this I have never heard T215 be talked about as being T206.....as the T213-1 has..
best regards

ps..btw Brian- as you are throwing out different scenarios about different issues I applaud you for it. I am the type that thinks everything should be questioned and inspected . Now, about an actual change, I am much slower.

[Exhibitman]

I think those are printing issues. I have some T206s with marked variations on the printing of background stuff. I will try to post one later.

[Brian-Chidester]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't own this T215-1 Griffith anymore(and took the T206 scan from ebay). The T215-1 belongs to another board member but it was in my collection for years. You can see the background shading be different......however it is more pronounced (much more) on different cards. I am not sure this isn't just a printing plate issue though. Even regardless of this I have never heard T215 be talked about as being T206.....as the T213-1 has..
best regards

ps..btw Brian- as you are throwing out different scenarios about different issues I applaud you for it. I am the type that thinks everything should be questioned and inspected . Now, about an actual change, I am much slower.

Thanks, Leon.

In truth, I actually see no way that these designations will ever be changed. So ensconsed are they in the trading, grading and pricing of these cards, I can't imagine wiping the slate clean of their past and getting everyone in the hobby to agree on a new designation.

But again, I was just throwing it out there with regards to T215-1. I have never owned one myself and know very little about the series besides what I've read in Burdick's book and have seen at card shows, on eBay and in auction catalogues. To my eyes, it just looked like the same thing that had happened with Coupon also happened with Red Cross. That being that the 1st series was printed between 1910-12, with the same fronts as T206, just distributed in areas not touched by the other cigarette distributers. My gut feeling about both T213-1 and T215-1 is that they would have been T206 back variants had there not been the second series (for both) and the third series (for T213). In other words, Red Cross and Coupon would be like Uzit or American Beauty.