Here's another beauty...

[RichardSimon]

Mike - here is a quote from the guys ad on ebay:
"Signatures and logos are transferred onto the ball made from original images of Babe Ruth & Lou Gehrig signatures"
Where did he get the original images of Joss and Keeler?
With so few authentic ones around, and more forgeries of them out there than authentic ones, do you know for sure that the baseballs you have are replicas of authentic signatures?
Did you supply him with authentic images?
--

[Scott Garner]

BTW- On the topic of Addie Joss signatures, I have a question for all of the members. Does anyone have what they believe is a legitimate exemplar of Joss's sig? I collect the signatures of ALL pitchers that threw a no-hitter. I was just wondering if anyone could even produce an exemplar as a reference point since the likelihood of owning one is not only cost prohibitive, but in all likelyhood a near impossibility. Thanks!

[keithsky]

Chris Morales and Stat have exemplers for a Joss autograph, Just ask them or Coachs Corner since there in the auctions every so often. They have everybody even Sitting Bull.

[henson1855]

Scott,I will email you a pic of Addle's sig.a book will be out late this year hopefully, by Ron Keurajian with an example of every HOF'ER'S autograph,from what I understand,it has taken years to put together,and there will be one or both of the Joss sigs that have surfaced,so I am looking forward to it coming out Ron emailed me and said he was talking to publishers and hopefully it will be out by Christmas.

[Scott Garner]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for the info about the upcoming book that will include exemplars of all HOF sigs. I'll look for it!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by keithsky

Chris Morales and Stat have exemplers for a Joss autograph, Just ask them or Coachs Corner since there in the auctions every so often. They have everybody even Sitting Bull.

Actually, Sitting Bull's autograph is not uncommon. While performing with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, Sitting Bull would sell autographed cards to patrons.

(The above should in no way be interpreted as an endorsemant of Cris Morales, Stat Authentic, or Coach's Corner.)

[danc]

By saying that's it's not "not" uncommon, you are saying that it's "ordinary" or "widespread". How many Sitting Bull autographs have you owned or seen?

Childlike signature = fraudulent in many cases with Sitting Bull and sure he played the role of Bob Feller in the late 19th Century (as did Geronimo, Annie Oakley and even the Red Baron sold signatures), but how many of these actually survived over the 120-125 years?

RR Auctions have sold eight signatures in fourteen years and average out to about $4,000 per ($8,000 for playing cards).

As far as these exemplars go of 19th Century and early 20th Century players, these authenticators have all invested in the Sports Collector's Digest (figures that they published it, huh?) Mark Allen Baker book of Hall Of Fame signatures. Wait until Ron's book comes out and you will see that Dan Brouthers didn't sign his name like a nine year old.

And Ron is still missing a few for his book and he won't use examples from the Coach Factory for the book.

DanC

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by danc

By saying that's it's not "not" uncommon, you are saying that it's "ordinary" or "widespread". How many Sitting Bull autographs have you owned or seen?

By "not uncommon," I actually did mean "common." (A double negative will do that.)

Sitting Bull's is a reasonably common signature. If you want one, you can have one. And exemplars are not hard to find. I've never owned one because I don't collect Western autographs. But I have seen many. And by "many," I mean a number much larger than three.

As I said above, I am not defending Coach's. Their Sitting Bull is garbage, as are virtually all their autographs. And if Morales or Stat has authenticated a piece, I wouldn't touch it.

But I have been collecting autographs seriously for more than forty years, have quite a decent collection (even if I do say so myself), and the fact is that Sitting Bull's signature is not rare. Many, many of those cards survived.

[danc]

Common actually means ordinary. You make it sound like we are talking about Hank Greenberg.

Even Heritage has only sold a handful over the last five years with one signed photo selling for over $12,000, none on eBay and I searched five big historical autograph sites and none in their inventory.

I still disagree with you and I have been buying and collecting for over 30 years.

If they are so common, find me three for sale...somewhere, anywhere. :-)

DanC