American Caramel E121 series of 80 survey revisited

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

Thank You for the information. I was excluding any sets outside of strictly E121s with 80, eighty or 120 backs.

[brianp-beme]

Hooray...a virtual floodgate of info. Due to the input (thanks Rhett, Erik Brian and Andy), I will revise/expand the lists below to reflect this new information. Thanks for the scan Erik...this card has shifted lists because of you. As is obvious if you check out his website, Rhett has studied this set quite extensively, and I will defer to his knowledge. Some great theories about the New York player angle...it makes a lot of sense. I will not consider the type 3 backs as discussed by Rhett as of yet, so that things don't get too confusing. And as corresponds to what Rhett mention, the two Gassler Bread cards I own are Causey and Ward, both of which are listed below as potentially issued only with the ends in 'eighty' back variation.
A question for Rhett--are there two versions of the Roth card? I have never seen the Roth, so don't know what other pose there is besides 'arms extended', which I haven't seen either.
Here are the updated lists.


Cards that possibly do not exist in the E121 series of 80 set:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121 series of 80 cards that possibly are only available with first line ends in 'eighty' back variation:

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
M.J. McNally
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith
Aaron Ward


Thanks again everyone,

Brian

[old-baseball]

I have both of these cards in my collection and I do believe that Aaron Ward is one of the tougher cards but I did pick up this second copy (second one shown) at the National this past summer knowing it was I tough card and hoping I could trade it. I didn't even look at the back until I was in a conversation with Rhett at his both and he was explaining his theory on the two backs, that is maybe the "eighty or the" version is more rare in some cases.

[rhettyeakley]

Kevin, the two Ward's you have shown have the two rare backs (as I would have suspected). Even though the lower one looks "regular" he has the Type 3 back I mentioned earlier--see the last line on back vs. a normal E121 and you will see the difference. The sample size of those backs is still pretty small (as they are the rarest of the 3 backs), but what I have documented of them the checklist will look a lot like the "ends in eighty" subset. I would be surpised to find a Ward with a regular Type 1 back.



**Just as a refresher, here are the known back variations at this point (the reversed back isn't a true back variation, just a printing variation)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Kevin for showing your Ward cards, and Rhett for posting the different backs for our fellow collectors to reference. I have updated the list below to reflect the new data.

Cards that possibly do not exist in the E121 series of 80 set:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121 series of 80 cards that possibly are only available with first line ends in 'eighty' back variation:

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
M.J. McNally
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith
Aaron Ward -- also seen with 'type 3' back


Brian

[brianp-beme]

As Rhett pointed out, the Type 3 backs are pretty tough to come by, probably more so than the ends in eighty backs. I think, however, that there are more out there unnoticed because of the subtle differences between it and the normal back...you have to be rather font-conscious to notice.

I have listed what I own...if nothing else to aid Rhett in his uncanny pattern deciphering ways.

Bancroft-fielding
Eddie Collins (have both type 3 and regular backs)
Donovan (type 3 and regular)
Frisch
Heilman-running (type 3 and regular)
Judge-batting
Kerr
Vitt


Brian (not type 3, nor regular)

[rhettyeakley]

I have not seen a regular back of each of these Series of 80 players (some probably do exist that way but I have only seen the "ends in eighty" for these guys, I have checklisted roughly 50 guys with this back at this point so I still need some players from the suspected 80 or so they probably produced during that print run...

William Fewster
Miller Huggins
Emil Meusel
Arthur Nehf
Robert Shawkey
Frank Snyder

so, check your E121 Series of 80's and let me know if you have regular backs of these guys (not Type 3 backs).

***************************
Also, here are my Type 3's that I have seen over the years (some of which I own)...

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
W. L. Gardner
Harry Heilman
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young

[sreader3]

I believe this E121-80 back type has not yet been discussed. The first line ends in "eighty of the" but the font is smaller than the other types (or possibly the difference is center rather than full justification like the difference between the two Holsum Bread types), such that "the" ends above the "U" in "LEAGUES." Comments welcome. Also, if anyone has an idea of the premium (if any) that would attach to this back type I would be interested in knowing.

Scot