T206 backs in scarcity order

teetwoohsix · #1 03-21-2010, 04:26 PM

Thank you Jim!!This is awesome,and just what I've been hoping to see.I think you did a great job on this list,and I will use this for referance.

Thank you for your hard work,and wisdom.

Sincerely,Clayton

wonkaticket · #2 03-22-2010, 07:55 AM

1. Lenox brown
2. Old Mill brown
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Uzit
5. Drum
6. Hindu red
7. Lenox black
8. Broad Leaf 350
9. American Beauty 460
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. Hindu brown
13. American Beauty 350 no frame
14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
15. Cycle 460
16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
17. Tolstoi
18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
19. EPDG
20. American Beauty 350 frame
21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
23. Cycle 350
24. Old Mill south
25. Sovereign 150
26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
28. Old Mill
29. Polar Bear
30. Sovereign 350 series forest green
31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
34. Piedmont 150 factory 25
35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
38. Piedmont 350 factory 25

Jimmy,

Great list I'm 99% there with you, I would say that after the recent Drum finds that have come to market. I would say Uzit trumps Drum today. Also I think Brown Lenox is much tougher than Brown Old Mill for what that's worth.

I think today Drum, Lenox (Black) & Red Hindu all fall in the same range....

Cheers,

John

cfc1909 · #3 03-22-2010, 08:17 AM

I didn't consider the St Louis Drum find that added 41 examples,plus 2 more at the recent Philly show and Hunts 27 probably make Uzit tougher than Drum. 70 Drums in the past few years is enough to change the rankings.

I will have to check how many brown Lenox and brown Old Mills that I know of and rethink this just a bit.

tedzan · #4 03-22-2010, 02:32 PM

The only Brown LENOX cards that I know of are Jordan (bat) and Marquard (follow thru).

We know of at least 10 different Southern Leaguer's with Brown OLD MILL backs.

TED Z

Brian Weisner · #5 03-22-2010, 02:35 PM

Hi Ted,
I can think of 2 more off the top of my head.... Cobb and Lajoie with Bat.
I'll check my records for more tonight.
Be well Brian

E93 · #6 03-22-2010, 03:05 PM

I don't want to raise a ruckous here, but Ty Cobb brand should probably be #3 in the rankings, thus moving everything below it down a notch.

I also have complete trust in Jim's analysis of the relative scarcity of these.
JimB

DixieBaseball · #7 03-22-2010, 03:22 PM

Not to raise a further ruckous or derail the thread, where would T213-1 Coupon Back fit into your scarcity order, Jim ? (I just wonder for practical purposes in case at some future point Coupons are recognized as part of the T206 backs)
Thanks,
JJ

Chicago206 · #8 03-22-2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E93

I don't want to raise a ruckous here, but Ty Cobb brand should probably be #3 in the rankings, thus moving everything below it down a notch.

I also have complete trust in Jim's analysis of the relative scarcity of these.
JimB

With all but 1 or is it 2 Cobb backs displaying a glossy front, and NONE of the other 15 Cigarette companies having ANY glossy fronts, why do you think the Cobb back even belongs on this list at all? Isnt it perfectly clear these cards were produced completely seperate from all other T206's? This card doesnt qualify as a true T206 card IMO.

teetwoohsix · #9 03-22-2010, 09:37 PM

Hi Jim-

I was just wondering if you were going to put together the same type of list for the 6 super prints?

Thanks-

Sincerely,Clayton

cfc1909 · #10 03-22-2010, 09:52 PM

I am pretty sure Ted is working on a list for the six super prints and it should be posted soon and it is different than this one

This list is for the collector that wants to get an example of each 206 back.

it is good you brought that up because they ( the six super prints) are in a class by themselves

ethicsprof · #11 03-22-2010, 11:37 PM

Jim R.,
great work!!
now i can finally throw away that old list from the infamous T206 museum site
and replace it with something current and accurate.
i,too, would suggest removing the blank back from the list, moving uzit ahead of drum, and AB460 ahead of broadleaf 350.
top drawer, ole buddy

best,
barry

JerryTotino · #12 03-23-2010, 07:55 AM

Jim,

With all due respect you can not assume that only a dozen copies of the Brown Lenox exist. There really has been no detailed analysis of this back type done before. Bill Brown's superset only lists 2 confirmed players. We know that this is obviously not true based on the 16 subjects already listed in this thread. In addition, this number was arrived at without really engaging others to provide input. I'm pretty sure the number of subjects will grow, as well as, the number of known examples per subject will grow.

Thus, I think it should not be stated that only a dozen examples exist until the proper analysis is performed.

As far as Brown Old Mills go I think the argument of including them on a rarity list just because they exist is inconsistent with removing the Old Mill Overprints from the rarity list. Just like the hand cut Brown Old Mills the overprints are also brown and hand cut. The only difference is that the overprints have the extra Factory 649 stamp on them. In my opinion all the Brown Old Mills were errors and/or an experiment. If you are going to include them in a back rarity list you should also put the Brown Old Mill Overprints back in.

Just my 2 cents.

Jerry

tedzan · #13 03-23-2010, 09:18 AM

This is not by all means a complete listing of the T206 back scarcity of the 6 super-prints, it is just a start.
We have a complete scarcity listing for the Red Cobb (that is listed here). A completely representative list
that includes the other 5 super-prints requires an extensive survey. Since these cards have as many as 24
different Tobacco advertising backs.

[linked image]

Red Cobb scarcity list......(the other 5 super-prints have not been this thoroughly surveyed....
however, there is some cross-correlation with the Cobb).

BROAD LEAF 460
DRUM
LENOX
SOVEREIGN 460
CAROLINA BRIGHTS
CYCLE 460
EPDG
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
SOVEREIGN 350
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
CYCLE 350
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
TOLSTOI
OLD MILL
SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30
PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
POLAR BEAR
SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25

TED Z

cfc1909 · #14 03-23-2010, 10:09 AM

Brown Old mill with the red bar I think is an error-I doesn't even cover the original factory number.
I think brown Old Mill is another color variation just like brown Lenox or red Hindu. Maybe they are hand cut and not an issued back but they are the same as an Old Mill south back, just brown.
I feel you need this back if you want to complete a back set.
Also they belong at the top of the list with brown Lenox because there are way less examples of both backs then the next one which is Broad Leaf 460.

I am sure more examples will be found with all three backs.
I do beleive the top three stand alone because the next one, be it Uzit or Drum, numbers are around 200-250 each.

cfc1909 · #15 03-23-2010, 10:38 PM

1. Old Mill brown
2. Lenox brown
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Uzit
5. Drum
6. Hindu red
7. Lenox black
8. American Beauty 460
9. Broad Leaf 350
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. Hindu brown
13. American Beauty 350 no frame
14. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
15. Cycle 460
16. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
17. Tolstoi
18. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
19. EPDG
20. American Beauty 350 frame
21. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
22. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
23. Cycle 350
24. Old Mill south
25. Sovereign 150
26. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
27. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
28. Old Mill
29. Polar Bear
30. Sovereign 350 series forest green
31. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
33. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
34. Piedmont 150 factory 25
35. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
36. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
38. Piedmont 350 factory 25

ok-I switched Drum and Uzit-because of the 70 Drums in the recent finds
also switched AB 460 and BL 350 -BL 350 has alot more possibilites because of the series it is in

still willing to listen to any other possible changes-and remember this list will vary for each collectors expirience-this one is just my expirience collecting 206 tough backs
__________________

tedzan · #16 03-24-2010, 08:30 AM

Lee

I do not agree with you regarding the AB 460 cards. You and I have been collecting "460" backs for at least the past 10 years.
Your CYCLE 460 sub-set is near complete with 100+ cards (out of a possible 109).

My AB 460 sub-set is far from complete with approx. 60 cards (out of a possible 103). Furthermore, to date, only 73 cards with
AB 460 backs have been confirmed. I constantly search several sources to find any new AB 460 cards....they seldom appear.

The significant difference between CYCLE 460 and AB 460 are the Factory #'s. The CYCLE 460 cards are from Factory # 25 (VA),
where most of ATC's tobacco brands were produced in 1909 thru 1910. The AB 460 cards were inserted in AB cigarette packs in
Factory # 42 (NC).

The AB 460 cards were printed in 1911 at the tail-end of the T206 press runs (during the transitionary process of the ATC dives-
titure)....therefore, they were Short-Printed relative to BROAD LEAF 350 (Factory # 25) and CYCLE 460 cards.

Best regards,

TED Z

bbsports · #17 03-27-2010, 09:05 AM

There are more Sovereign 460 backs around than you think. A lot of sellers use the word "rare" too loosely when describing their backs & So. Leaguers. Granted, So. Leaguers are tougher to get, but not rare. Only Cycle 460 & American Beauty 460 backs are tough, not the 350 series. That also goes for the Sovereign 150 & 350 backs as well. Piedmont 42 backs out of Durham N.C., are tough as well, but because there are so many Piedmont backs out there in general, it does get the credit than it should, but someday it will.

tedzan · #18 03-27-2010, 11:16 AM

OK everyone....when is the last time you saw any of the following T206's with SOVEREIGN 460 backs ?

Chance (yellow portrait)

Chase (blue portrait)

Chase (throwing-dark cap)

Cobb (red portrait)

Evers (bat-yellow sky)

Mathewson (dark cap)

Exactly 52 cards were printed with SOVEREIGN 460 backs. Many of these are not that scarce; however, the above 6
super-prints are considerably more scarce.

For example, the Red Cobb is the most available T206 in this entire set....this card with the SOVEREIGN 460 back has
been confirmed with only 4 examples. Hey guys, that's tougher than a Joe Doyle error card (there is 8 of them) !

TED Z

scottglevy · #19 03-27-2010, 11:18 AM

The most accurate list of T206 backs in scarcity order that I've seen to date. Thanks for an amazing job Jim R.

My only criticism at this point would be the placement of P42. I'd personally move it up a few notches to around the 'hindu' or maybe just a touch tougher category.

Either way, this list will be replacing the one that I've privately kept.

refz · #20 03-27-2010, 01:03 PM

ted

chase blue port sov 460
chase blk cap sov 460

thanks to you

,, the matty and chase blk cap throwing pop up once in awhile the others are seldom seen in my opinion.

teetwoohsix · #21 04-18-2010, 11:25 AM

I was reviewing this great thread,and noticed something I missed before,which is how the Sweet Caporal 350-460 ranks in scarcity.I found it very interesting how the scarcity level varies so much based on factories.Here is JimR's scarcity list from #16 through #33,just to use as the example of what I noticed:
16.)Cycle 460
17.)Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42
18.)Tolstoi
19.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25
20.)EPDG
21.)American Beauty 350 Frame
22.)Sovereign 350 Apple Green- 350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
23.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42
24.)Cycle 350
25.)Old Mill Southern
26.)Sovereign 150
27.)Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint
28.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 Scroll
29.)Old Mill
30.)Polar Bear
31.)Sovereign 350 Series Forest Green
32.)Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25
33.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30

It was interesting for me to see that Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 was seated in between Tolstoi and EPDG,,,so I looked through my T206's,and was suprised to see that I only had one,which is Doyle batting!!

So,using the list above,it is interesting to see how the Sweet Caporal 350-460 ranks in scarcity by Factories.Here's the breakdown:
19.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25
23.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42
28.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 Scroll
33.)Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30

Does anyone know why this is?I guess I didn't realize the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25 was that tough,but I guess it is!!

Also,another obsevation-when Lee so kindly gave us his breakdown of backs after finishing T206 (I love these breakdowns!!),out of all the cards,only three EPDG's!!!Maybe that's going in too many different directions,but really-isn't EPDG scarcer than we may think?

Sincerely,Clayton

tedzan · #22 04-18-2010, 01:25 PM

AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN,
SWEET CAPORAL are all Factory #25 (Richmond, VA) T-brands and the T206 cards associated with these
brands from 1909 to 1910 state this on their bottom line.

The American Tobacco Company was forced to divest by 1911; and, their AMERICAN BEAUTY, PIEDMONT,
and SWEET CAP cigarette production was transferred from Factory 25 to the Liggett & Myers Factory #42
in Durham, NC at the start of 1911. The BROAD LEAF 350 & 460,, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE 460, DRUM,
SWEET CAPORAL 460 (Factory #25) T206's were printed in the Fall/Winter of 1910. They are much tougher
than the other backs simply because Factory 25 cigarette production of these brands ended and the cards
associated with these brands were either Short-Printed or discarded.

For the same reason, you will note that SWEET CAPORAL 460 (Factory #30) backs do not exist for the 55
cards in the 350/460 series. They were printed, but never issued. Instead a scroll was printed over the Fac-
tory 30 line and Factory 42 was added, since these cards were shipped to the NC plant to be inserted into
Sweet Caporal cigarette packs.

TED Z

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