Crossover Issue

[Neal]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

"Usually PSA is much more strict on its grades than SGC especially with T206."

This is just completely wrong. I once attempted a 40 T206 PSA cross over of PSA 4, 5 and 6 graded T206 cards and only 30 came back graded by SGC. (Of course, I put a minimum grade -- PSA is notorious for overgrading pre-war cards.) I could also give you countless examples/stories of PSA 5 graded T206 cards with wrinkles that SGC would never cross over. SGC is somewhat more lenient when it comes to moderate corner rounding and centering, but otherwise is the stricter company with respect to creasing, wrinkles, paper loss, glue residue, etc.

Your failure to put a minimum grade was a catastrophic mistake and the blame here should not be shifted to SGC. The fact that they have signaled a willingness to work with you on a group of them only confirms that their customer service is second to none.

Finally, the below T206 Cobb was submitted to SGC by me for a crossover. I submitted it in its PSA 4 case, with a "Min. 50" notation. SGC gave it a 60, which I always felt was the right grade. By doing so, they have affirmed for me that I need not crack my PSA cards out before submitted for crossovers.

PSA had the correct grade on that .... should be a 4

Great looking Cobb!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Neal

PSA had the correct grade on that .... should be a 4

Great looking Cobb!

That will be a PSA 4 every day of the week because of the corner rounding, but I have always felt (i.e., pre-PSA/SGC world) that a card like my Cobb is an EX, even with the slightly rounded corners, because it is otherwise clean, has no wrinkles, etc. But I know a lot of folks who collect 33 Goudeys in EX 5 condition do not chase the SGC 60s because they find the corners are often too soft from SGC.

But the point is, know your grader's standards before you dump a few hundred/thousand dollars to have your collection graded by them. Then you won't be surprised by the grades.

I've had SGC grade over 500 of my raw T206 cards over the past decade. Maybe once did I have to go back to them and suggest they under-graded a card. They get it right, folks, with a strong degree of consistency. But the only way you would know that is if you spent the time sending cards in, analyzing the grades, talking to the SGC folk, etc.

[tinkereversandme]

I would like to see those same cards submitted to PSA, ungraded to see what grades would return. I wonder what level of consistency there is a second time around.

As a gambler, I recognize one in the poster (who didn't get a minimum, and dared to crossover), I'm sorry (even though I am a pro-SGC guy) this happened but I never understood the purpose of crossing over.

Also, as one poster mentioned. What would the point of sending them back in to SGC if they can't get it right the first time? Cards sent in the same condition don't get better by flight.

Larry

[steve B]

No, the cards wouldn't get any better, but as long as it's people doing the grading the grading will be inconsistent.

Maybe the grader didn't sleep well or argued with his wife,(Or she argued with her husband) and wasn't in a good mood.

Or maybe there was a special card going through that day and he didn't get the assignment.....

Borderline cases will seem better or worse depending on someones mood, or merely on different perceptions different days. Try taking a stack of maybe 150 cheap cards like late 70's in less than near mint. Now go through them and pick out the nicer ones. make two piles, the vg-ex and the ex. Leave them somewhere for a couple days, and sort them again. I'll bet you end up with a few that move from one stack to the other. For more fun try it at different times of the day. Say maybe right after a nice lunch and at 4:30.

Getting it 100% consistent is pretty hard And the workload can't make it any easier. I tried going through some fairly modern cards looking for the absolute best ones. 81 topps, looking at centering and corners mostly. I found I got sloppy after 3-400 cards and pretty hopeless after only 600.

And all that is why they're willing to do reviews

Steve B

[teetwoohsix]

I've only used the crossover service with SGC a couple of times,and I had sent GAI slabbed cards to them.I did state that if they wouldn't get the same grade or higher,to just send 'em back.One came back same grade,others got bumped a grade higher,to my suprise.

I buy cards in SGC,PSA,and BVG holders.In doing this,I have noticed that the PSA graded cards seem inconsistent-some seem graded accurately,others clearly overgraded.For this reason,I will never try to cross my PSA to SGC.And with BVG,I actually feel the cards that I have that they've graded seem right on the money.

With all that being said,I'm sorry you had a bad experience with all of this,and I hope you find a way to work it out.

Sincerely,Clayton

[BCauley]

I've thought about crossing over but I'm too lazy and never get around to sending in anything. I do have some stuff waiting for a trip to SGC, some of which was taken out of a PSA slab as soon as I got the card.

I use the grade up top by the company pretty much as a guide. When I look at an auction or listing on here, I'll see the grade in the title and I have a general idea as to what it will look like. However, it all comes down to eye appeal for me. If I see a PSA 3 that in my eyes looks better than a 4, that's great. I'm taking the one that looks best to me and the one I want in my collection.

Professional grading is not an exact science. Maybe the grader hadn't had their cup of coffee yet in the AM or maybe it's getting late in the PM on a Friday. Graders are human. I only look to be happy with the card and to heck with what the flip says.

[jp1216]

My last SGC sub included about 10 crossovers. One GAI got bumped up, Both BVGs got a bump up and out of 7 PSAs (0 got bumped up, 3 got bumped down, and 4 crossed).

[cfc1909]

Joe P. is Joe Pelaez and one of the best friends I ever had-I miss him terribly.


about your cards-SGC grades the cards to their standard whether they are in PSA slabs or raw. They will work with you if you talk to them -your buisness is important to them.
I hope this works out for you

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Neal

PSA had the correct grade on that .... should be a 4

Great looking Cobb!

I personally would grade it VG EX+ but it does not offend me to call it EX. SGC will grade T206s with even more corner wear EX though, and that bothers me.

[dancollins]

Originally Posted by Neal

PSA had the correct grade on that .... should be a 4

Great looking Cobb!

I agree PSA had it right, maybe a 4.5 at best but nice Cobb

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Neal

PSA had the correct grade on that .... should be a 4

Great looking Cobb!

I agree. I didn't think either PSA or SGC awarded EX grades for corners rounded to that extent.

[ethicsprof]

sorry to hear about the troubles, Dan.

i must say that every time i've spoken with SGC's customer service, things have worked out well.

best,

barry

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Wesley

I agree. I didn't think either PSA or SGC awarded EX grades for corners rounded to that extent.

SGC will. My past set had a number of examples of this. The corners have to get worn to my Bender to merit an SGC 50:

From SGC Graded Cards

[dancollins]

T206 Collector you should go work for SGC or buy stock in their company you defend them like someone would their Mother or Girlfriend

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by dancollins

T206 Collector you should go work for SGC or buy stock in their company you defend them like someone would their Mother or Girlfriend

In all fairness when someone starts a thread with the title, "Very Very Disgusted with SGC - Beware" you have to expect a reaction. I am also a believer in SGC, however I feel objective and when they get it wrong I will say it. I don't think your issue warrants a rant matched by the thread title.

[dancollins]

Originally Posted by Robextend

In all fairness when someone starts a thread with the title, "Very Very Disgusted with SGC - Beware" you have to expect a reaction. I am also a believer in SGC, however I feel objective and when they get it wrong I will say it. I don't think your issue warrants a rant matched by the thread title.

Well Rob we all have opinions thanks for yours!!!

[jbsports33]

I just had some cards graded as well and yes SGC can be tough, but you have to understand both PSA and SGC kind a have a different perspective with grading cards - I still deal with both and for the most part no issues. I would love to get better grades and sometimes I feel SGC maybe off a bit, but I still accept the fact they look at way more cards then me!

Jimmy

[Peter_Spaeth]

Another grade I don't agree with. The point is, both companies grade differently, despite the superficial similarity in numbering.

[dancollins]

I was furious this morning and I am glad I posted because some of these posts were so comical they actually put me in a good mood!!!


The funny thing is that if I would have sent 105 T207's to PSA that were in SGC holders for crossover and the same result happened I guarantee many of these posts would be much different. People would be saying see I told you PSA sucks... Here is my real opinion I think SGC and PSA both suck. Unfortunately for our hobby cards are worth more in the holders. Some posters are saying well who cares what they are graded they are the same great cards. That is a line of crap, whether you want to admit it or not collecting these cards are also an investment with the money they cost, so in an industry dominated by "grading" it absolutely matters. I used to be 100% anti grading.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Robextend

In all fairness when someone starts a thread with the title, "Very Very Disgusted with SGC - Beware" you have to expect a reaction. I am also a believer in SGC, however I feel objective and when they get it wrong I will say it. I don't think your issue warrants a rant matched by the thread title.

I think Dan deserves some slack here for the rant. He just lost thousands of dollars in grading and the value of his cards. If that happened to most of us, I think we'd be similarly upset. (And Dan has already admitted he should've put a minimum grade for crossover down. However, I'd still be upset if I were him. I recently got in a dispute w/ Chase bank where I lost $70 in overdraft fees because of a mistake where Chase Mortgage didn't communicate with Chase Online, and I was steaming because of that. And that was only 70 bucks!)

[barrysloate]

Thanks Daryl. I still don't know all of PSA's half grades.

If that is the case, the card would merit a 1.5, IMO.

[dancollins]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think Dan deserves some slack here for the rant. He just lost thousands of dollars in grading and the value of his cards. If that happened to most of us, I think we'd be similarly upset. (And Dan has already admitted he should've put a minimum grade for crossover down. However, I'd still be upset if I were him. I recently got in a dispute w/ Chase bank where I lost $70 in overdraft fees because of a mistake where Chase Mortgage didn't communicate with Chase Online, and I was steaming because of that. And that was only 70 bucks!)

thank you Gary!!!

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think Dan deserves some slack here for the rant. He just lost thousands of dollars in grading and the value of his cards. If that happened to most of us, I think we'd be similarly upset. (And Dan has already admitted he should've put a minimum grade for crossover down. However, I'd still be upset if I were him. I recently got in a dispute w/ Chase bank where I lost $70 in overdraft fees because of a mistake where Chase Mortgage didn't communicate with Chase Online, and I was steaming because of that. And that was only 70 bucks!)

Of course I have been in situations like that as well, however I would not take it out on someone if it wasn't well deserved. From the few T207 examples I saw, I don't believe anyone should be disgusted with SGC.

The only good thing is that here is that there is a lesson learned. Always use the minimum grade method when you do not want to drop grades.

Dan - Didn't mean to sound unsympathetic., either way you still have great cards.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by dancollins

T206 Collector you should go work for SGC or buy stock in their company you defend them like someone would their Mother or Girlfriend

I know. I probably should.

I used to have a lot of value tied up in SGC. Putting aside my autographed pre-war cards, I only have a couple dozen SGC graded cards any more. I have about 200 raw T206 cards.

But having "been there" and "done that" I still find it surprising that people "follow the leader" to PSA. It only took me a couple of years of really bad customer service and inconsistent T206 grading to make a clean break.

You ought to have a sit down with the SGC folk at your local card show. Get to know them. They are really great people, very responsive to customer issues.

[tbob]

I've seen cards from both companies with corner problems but otherwise nice getting PSA 5 or SGC 60 grades. I just hate that SGC is death on any kind of backwriting no matter how small (even on blank backs). Maybe PSA has the right idea when they grade PSA 6 MK instead of the grade tumbling to an SGC 10 or 20. Just venting...

[dancollins]

Originally Posted by tbob

I've seen cards from both companies with corner problems but otherwise nice getting PSA 5 or SGC 60 grades. I just hate that SGC is death on any kind of backwriting no matter how small (even on blank backs). Maybe PSA has the right idea when they grade PSA 6 MK instead of the grade tumbling to an SGC 10 or 20. Just venting...

They really hammer Old Judges

[Peter_Spaeth]

Similar to Bender?

[dancollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Similar to Bender?

That card is definitely vg-ex look at the corner wear. No way in the world that card is EX

Nice looking but not an EX

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Similar to Bender?

That Lajoie actually looks like the one I had in my collection -- and may very well be. In any event, no -- the Bender is missing an entire corner (top left), while the Lajoie has a bit more in terms of corner definition on all four. There is, obviously, no black line -- and I had an SGC 60 Schreck that looked a lot more like my Bender and used to get me a little worked up.