T206 Wagner proof strip now in Philly...

[onlychild]

(1) The Wagner's colors are complete, while the colors of the other 4 subjects are incomplete (this is a printing impossibility).

........Wagner's collar is blue, but the other 4 collars are not.

I dunno Ted...compared to the other Wagner's it certainly seems to be missing some or all of the blue.

The seams or lines are sure strange. it would be great to see up close and in person.

[Abravefan11]

Edited to change my opinion.

Looking really closely at the cards below and other examples of the Wagner, it appears the underlying color of the collar is black and not white or gray like the others. So at first look it appears that Wagner's collar has had the color application and the others have not, but it is missing the blue as well.

The images could have been printed simultaneously.

[barrysloate]

I saw the strip in person on a regular basis- it was part of the Halper Collection and when I was a cataloguer at Sotheby's during that time it was there. My memory is it was one continuous strip, but it has been over ten years since I last saw it.

[jeffshep]

Here's a link to it selling at Mastro/Oser back in Aug. 2002 for over $78k. I recall some T3 proofs having a different look than their standard issue counterparts - slight variations in color, perhaps a crisper image.

Now if Bowerman and Wags had only switched places, lookout!

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=27422

[Abravefan11]

Here's a large image of Wagner's collar where you can see the underlying color is black with a blue layer applied on top.

[jmk59]

Tim - very nice layout of the strip and the individual cards in the same order. Thanks for putting it together - makes it very easy to compare and think.

J

[steve B]

Without getting into wether it's a pasteup or not - And I'm on the fence about that- I can point out why someone would make a pasteup like that.

It's an old sales tool to drop names, even if the names dropped haven't signed or bought yet. Some old sales letters will mention well known personalities or companies that use the product, and yes it's underhanded, but some of those people or companies didn't ever buy the product.

So lets say you're trying to get Wagner to sign so you could use his image.
You send a letter saying something like "all the greatest players have agreed to be in the set". And along with that you send a sample. That sample can go a couple ways depending on the individual. Someone with a big ego that was very public say Reggie Jackson? You'd probably just include his own card. For most people you'd want to include their card plus a few others. Just like on this strip. Young is a good choice unless Wagner doesn't like him personally. Brown is also a good choice, one of the better pitchers, and also a national leaguer. Both those choices play to the ego, if Young and Brown are in the set most guys would want to be there as well. Bowerman and Kling seem like odd choices, maybe there were more sample strips and the better players got used up. OR maybe Bowerman and Kling were guys that were friends with Wagner or players he respected for some reason. I don;t know enough about Wagner or Bowerman and Kling to feel at all sure.

What doesn't quite fit this idea is Wagner being anywhwere other than the center of the strip. That's where I'd put him if the strip was a pasteup targeted towards him.

Totallly unsupported guess? If it's a pasteup maybe it was Bowermans and Wagner got it from him when he heard about the cards that he hadn't agreed to be on?

Pasteups like this would also be used to arrange the final sheet layout once all the designs had been approved either by the player portrayed or the printers art department. or both. I think modern cards have a whole crew of approvals required.

Steve B

[jeffshep]

Great observations Steve!

[tedzan]

FYI....here are some examples of pre & post-war Salesman's Samples. Such BB card promotional samples (throughout the years)
have preceded new issues. And for obvious reasons, they are always standard production examples of the actual BB cards.

This 5-card (Wagner) "strip" in no way represents a standard production of T206's. In my opinion, it was hastily cobbled together
with individual FRONTS of T206's to provide Wagner a sample of his card.... prior to the T206 production run in the Spring of 1909.
And, as Steve B alluded to, 4 other players were discretely selected from American Litho's T206 proof pile and added to compose
this strip.....perhaps, in order to sway Wagner to grant them the rights to include him in this set.

From what we know about how T206's were printed, a true production uncut horizontal strip of T206's would comprise of at least
6 cards.....and, without lines between these cards, or the alignment cross-hair markings.

No one here has yet presented a plausible argument regarding this "strip" to convince me (and some others), otherwise.







TED Z

[Abravefan11]

I'm skeptical of the theory that American Litho made or sent this strip to Wagner for his approval or to sway him into being included in the set.

If you were trying to sway Wagner would you send him an incomplete product? Or would you run the additional colors and send him an example of a finished product?

[JamesGallo]

I think the fact that several people who have seen it in person think it is a strip means something.

Ted have you not seen this in person.

I know something about the prodruction process and I can tell you that there are times when there is one or a few things done differently from everything else.

Also if this was not a strip I don't know why it wouldn't be removed and sold as single cards. This has always sold for less then single Wagners and I think as a single card the Wagner would sell for more then the strip has.

James G

[tedzan]

1st......the story says this strip was in Wagner's estate until it was discovered in the 1970's..............Do you accept this ?

2nd...."off the bat", Wagner claimed he did not want to be any part of these tobacco cards. But, he was one of the most
popular BB players in that era; and, ATC wanted to include him in their new set of premiums....I think we know this is so ?

3rd.....this strip has all the makings of a HASTILY conceived attempt to persuade Mr Wagner to sign onto ATC's designs.
Again, I have to repeat what STEVE B has very astutely suggested......

"For most people you'd want to include their card plus a few others. Just like on this strip. Young is a good choice unless
Wagner doesn't like him personally. Brown is also a good choice, one of the better pitchers, and also a national leaguer.
Both those choices play to the ego, if Young and Brown are in the set most guys would want to be there as well."

Finally, Tim regarding your........
"If you were trying to sway Wagner would you send him an incomplete product? Or would you run the additional colors and
send him an example of a finished product? "

ATC was ready to go into production with these cards in the Spring/Summer of 1909 and this was a pre-production "selling
sample" that they cobbled together at the last moment....at least Wagner's picture is virtually complete.


In any event, I personally feel that if we can date this piece to being a pre-production T206 artifact, it should garner a value
equal to (or greater than) any similar Wagner card.

However, to date it has not, nor will it....until it is professionally SLABBED....this is too bad !



TED Z

[jeffshep]

I was siding with the full printed strip theory, but after staring at it for a bit a few things still have me questioning the possibility of this. First, I would assume the red "B" missing on Bowerman's jersey would also mean Kling and Brown would be lacking their red background color, but clearly it's present. One possibility is that team names were reserved for a separate printing plate, to make necessary changes if a player was traded etc. ATC may have had a multi-year release in mind upon T206's inception.

Second, I've had some truly wretched T206 beaters in my day, but something just looks off in some of those creases - almost as if there is some sort of material composite going on. Look at the upper right corner of Brown - it appears as if a portion of the "top layer" is folded over, touching the edge of Wagner's border.

Third - the toning of the white borders. I've witnessed the discoloring various glues can cause on paper, especially over time - these borders just lack the brilliance most T206's possess. Obviously without card in hand, or a decent hi-res scan, it's difficult to tell. I'm also curious as to what the lightened areas under the proof marks are? To me the borders should be that color, and the rest has been toned down due to the introduction of some sort of adhesive to the reverse. It's possible these "proofs" were printed on thin paper stock, not the usual thicker stock which I believe had some sort of clay coating on the front - hence the lack of brilliance or "pop" in color on the cards.

Just some observations. Regardless, it's an amazing piece - I remember being in awe as a 12yr old when I first saw a pic of it...

[/QUOTE]