Coupon Type 1: Paper Theory

tbob · #1 06-05-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I think most folks sort T206s alphabetically, as they're listed in the modern catalogs. I don't, but then I'm quite contrary. I like them sorted the way the collectors did 30, 40, 50, and 100 years ago did... by team. I sort them into teams, then alphabetically. And it is neat to spread a team out, by series, then alphabetically.

Frank, I sort them that way also, so there's at least two of us contrarians

Abravefan11 · #2 06-05-2010, 03:16 PM

Forgive my remedial question but what evidence is there for when these cards were printed or distributed other than the connection to the T206 350 series?

FrankWakefield · #3 06-05-2010, 03:46 PM

If you look at the players and their teams for the -1 cards, it matches up fairly well with 1910 and T206's series 350... both the team designations as well as the artwork. Johnny Evers is with Chicago and Hub Perdue is with Nashville. Hub doesn't appear in the -2 Coupons, Evers does with a Boston caption, his new team. List the players in -1, look at the teams with which they're depicted, then look at what the captions say for the -2 cards, and you'll see that -1 Coupons are issued after T206s got started, about in the middle of the 350 series. The -2s are produced 2 or 3 years after that. And the -3s half a dozen years or more. My recollection is that the thinking was among old collectors was that -3s were part of a regional pricing strategy, that was eventually abandoned, around WW I.

Abravefan11 · #4 06-05-2010, 04:12 PM

Thank you Frank. So given the cards are like the 350 set is there anything beside the commonality that could lead us to conclude they were printed in 1910? Conceivable could the same images have been used with the same team designations later than that and prior to the T213-2's?

FrankWakefield · #5 06-05-2010, 10:39 PM

Yes.

In addition to comparing the pose and player/team similarities with series 350; additionally look just at the player and team designations, especially where someone hadn't been with the particular team all that long.

You have in mind the idea that today you and I could print a Willie Mays card showing him with the San Francisco Giants. That doesn't mean our card was printed back in the late 50's or the 60's, but it would be logical that it couldn't have been printed in the late 1940s. Some folks lose their grip on that logic, and it hampers card dating.

Abravefan11 · #6 06-05-2010, 10:52 PM

Thanks for the follow up. I understand what you're saying about dating sets and agree that it is the best method that we have. It isn't an exact science for the lack of a better term and the best we can try and do is book end so to speak, narrow down a time frame, and with certain details determine what's most reasonable.

I just didn't know of any other information besides the connection to the 350 series and was wondering if there was something additional I was missing.

tedzan · #7 06-06-2010, 02:07 AM

Several factors connect the T213-1 set to being printed (and most likely issued) in the Summer of 1910.
Before I get into these factors, this picture illustrates this fact better than words can describe. The iden-
tical back designs of these 5 backs were drawn by the same artist. Therefore, it is a fair conclusion that
all 5 of these brands were issued within a narrow time frame.

[linked image]

We have documentation dating the issue of the American Beauty 350 (frame) cards to the Summer of 1910.
I would say there is a very high probability that this Coupon set (68 cards) was issued in the timeframe of
the Summer/Fall 1910.

A 2nd factor is the quotes surrounding COUPON. ATC acquired the Coupon tobacco company circa 1909-1910.
At the time of the T213-1 printing, the ATC Copyright was still pending (hence "COUPON").

A 3rd factor is evident in the make up of the 20 Southern Leaguer's (SL) in the T213-1 set. Since these cards
were destined for Louisiana, most of the SL that were selected are from the Southern Association. Now if you
examine this closer, you will see a mix of players from the 150 series SL and from the 350-only series SL.

All 48 Major Leaguer's in this set are from the 350-only series of the T206 set. The 350-only series (216 cards)
were printed in several phases from late 1909 to the Fall of 1910.

TED Z

marcdelpercio · #8 06-06-2010, 03:06 PM

To me, I think the simple question is, what is a T206? If your answer is "whatever Burdick said" (which technically is correct) then Coupons are not and never will be. I certainly understand the arguments against inclusion but in my opinion, a T206 is as follows:

A card released during 1909-1911 by an ATC brand that shares the same artwork, design, production, and distribution methods.

In my mind, Coupon Type 1's clearly fit this description and should be considered as a part of this collective set, whatever you wish to call it. The only arguments against inclusion seem to be the thinner paper stock and the lack of series/number designation on the back. However there are other examples discussed above of widely accepted T206 brands which also feature variations in these things. The use of a different paper stock is irrelevant to me as even with a thinner stock, these cards still share the same artwork, design, production and distribution as all other T206 brands. There are many possible reasons a thinner stock may have been used...some already discussed and probably some that nobody has yet thought of.

I don't think we can compare the Coupon Type 2's and Type 3's as these were created after the ATC breakup by Liggett and Myers which was no longer an ATC brand. Though they share some similarities with the Type 1's and T206's, they do not meet the standard of the same artwork and design (and were released by what was then a different company) so should be considered an entirely separate set.

FrankWakefield · #9 06-06-2010, 04:36 PM

Chris, Marc,...

Have you guys actually held a T213-1 Coupon and a T206 white border tobacco card in your hand? I'm not talking about slabs, the real cards in your hand?

marcdelpercio · #10 06-06-2010, 05:12 PM

Frank,
Yes, I have...quite a few in fact. I am not at all disputing that the paper stock is noticeably thinner. What I am saying is that I don't consider this a reason to exclude these from being part of this set. Regardless of the stock, Coupon Type 1's share the same manufacturer, timeline, artwork, design, production, and distribution methods as all other T206 brands. To me these are the common threads that make a card a "T206". Others may disagree (Burdick obviously did) but there really is no right answer. All we can do is try to define common characteristics of the several different subsets of cards that we group together under the name of T206. To me, any card that fits the criteria I stated belongs under this heading.

tiger8mush · #11 06-06-2010, 05:29 PM

1914 Cracker Jacks are noticably thinner than their 1915 counterparts, yet both reside under ACC designation E145. 1914s = E145-1, 1915s = E145-2

Weren't the distribution methods for the two years slightly different too, as 1914s could ONLY be found in boxes of candy, whereas the 1915s could ALSO be sent in for via mail?

Rob

marcdelpercio · #12 06-06-2010, 06:34 PM

Rob,
Yes, and that is another good example of the occasional inconsistency of this classification system. Coupon Type 1's are significantly different artistically than Type 2's and Type 3's yet are all classified as T213's simply because of the Coupon brand. Cracker Jacks were distributed and advertised differently between 1914 and 1915 sets yet are both E145's simply because of the Cracker Jack brand. However, you then have a single set like T206 that is a conglomeration of many different brands and series over multiple years.

I have a TREMENDOUS amount of respect and appreciation for Burdick's work. I think his system is well-designed and user friendly in many ways. However, the fact remains that it is an arbitrary system created by a human being and as such, contains many inconsistencies. I think there is nothing wrong with continuing to update and add to Burdick's generally outstanding work as new information and theories emerge over the decades.

FrankWakefield · #13 06-06-2010, 06:40 PM

If I had a stack of T206s and T213-1's, then I jumbled them up on a table, anyone sitting down to sort them could see the ballplayers on the fronts, the various brands on the backs, and would quickly see that the Coupon cards were printed on paper while the rest were on card stock. To refer to the Coupon material as thin paper stock is fine. But saying thinner is a bit of a stretch. One is on card stock. The other on paper. It isn't that one is thin and the other thinner... at least it isn't to me. One is paper, one is card. Maybe if Coupons hadn't been continued half a dozen years later then Mr. Burdick would have been less likely to sort them separately.

I'm working on a list of the -1 players, their teams, and when they joined. I can already see a problem with Ellam. Roy Ellam was with Birmingham 1909 through 1915; he joined the Nashville Vols in 1916, where he hit .278 in 138 games as he played and was the team's only manager. The "Nashville" designation is on his T206, too. That was a mistake in team designation back in 1910 with the T206s, and with the T213-1's. Someone one day may try to date all of the cards to 1916, and we know (or we should know) that that isn't correct.

I'll finish the list one day and try to get it posted here.

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