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#1
07-01-2010, 10:15 PM
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It's proof that whenever Harry Lord is wearing his uniform and bends down the pinstripes on his uniform react accordingly. I'm having trouble seeing how they would ever react differently. They're on the uniform. What distinguishes his crouch so much so that you can definitively say that the newspaper photo could have not been taken any other day than the same day and play as the T202 photo? I don't see it.
In the T202 the Cleveland player's right arm is at his waist. In the newspaper photo, Jackson's right arm is at his forehead. In both photos he has yet to reach the bag. So how did he get his hand from his waist to his head so fast? These photos would have had to have been snapped in direct succession for them to be the same play. But the positioning of the right arms suggests otherwise. 
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#2
07-01-2010, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Packs, Really. Truly. You do yourself a tremendous disservice when you start to argue photo analysis and identification with Mark. Please stop.
__________________
Jim Van Brunt
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#4
07-02-2010, 02:34 AM
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As I said - try it. Get yourself some old style wool flannel baseball pants with a distinct pinstripe down the side. Crouch down and have someone take a photo. Then play catch for a while, run around, etc. Put the pants on again the next day - crouch down and take another photo. I don't think you will get the exact same pinstripe pattern as we get in the 2 images under discussion. Like any good rational argument, my assertion is stated in a manner that can be shown to be wrong if it is wrong.
>>>So how did he get his hand from his waist to his head so fast? That has been asked and answered. Why are you saying it's too fast - I don't think it is.
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#5
07-02-2010, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
__________________
Four phrases I nave coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading.
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#6
07-02-2010, 02:11 PM
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All I'm saying is this. If that is a photo of Jackson on the T202, then to me it would have to be a totally different play than the one captured on the front of the newspaper. I just can't conceive how he would go from the position he's in on the T202 to the one on the front of the newspaper in just mili-seconds and in one fluid movement. To me, and this is my opinion, these are two different photos of either two different players OR the same player on different plays. Maybe it's theoretically possible for him to move his hand to his forehead, but where do you see that kind of momentum in the T202 photo? You're speculating that he COULD do it, but what about the T202 photo suggests he WOULD end up in the position he does on the newspaper? In the T202 photo the player's foot has just hit the ground and is beginning to spray up the dirt. In the newspaper photo Jackson's foot is way off the ground. If these photos were taken consecutively, then why is there no dirt thrown up in the newspaper photo? The only dirt being thrown up in the newspaper photo appears to be from his upper body. For a person's hand to go from their waist to their head in consecutive frames, there would need to be some sort of middle ground. His arm would already need to be rising or be near his head at the time of the slide. I'm no expert, but I just don't see how the player's hand could go from waist to head in consecutive frames or any indication that the player is raising his arm in the T202 photo.
As for the pinstripes, you're an expert and I value your opinion. The only thing I'm going to say is that these men are professionals. They would have practiced technique daily for hours and hours until every play became a sort of routine. Unless they make a dramatic change, a player is always going to look the same at bat or during a pitch, or turning a double play. It's been rooted in them through repetition. I'm just putting it out there, but there's a good chance Lord held the bag down in a similar position every time. That could just be his stance when the bag is being challenged. Maybe in these two instances he is in that routine and this is an example of lightning striking twice. Last edited by packs; 07-02-2010 at 05:01 PM.
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#7
07-02-2010, 05:04 PM
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I guess I would disagree with you on what those pictures show, and how they could have been taken moments apart.
More importantly, I also do not agree that these plays are so routine the players will always look the same. The play in the photo was unusual--a tag play at third. Even more odd is that Joe Jackson appears to have made a bonehead play--trying to advance to third on a ball hit to shortstop. Lord's feet and body are positioned for a throw from shortstop with a straddle for tagging purposes--not a throw from second base, first base, outfield or anywhere else, and not with feet postioned for a force play. This play simply does not happen that often, and I doubt that there was a "routine" way to receive such a throw that it would look the same every time, down to the wrinkles in the uniform. Hopefully we can eventually pull play by play or other newspaper accounts to see if this tag play happened in any of the other games played by these two teams in Cleveland that season. I note that in the box score for the 5/6 game, Harry Lord was credited with 0 putouts, so we can eliminate that game as a source for the t202 card image as well.
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