1921-23 E220 National Caramel Dating Re-evaluation

[brianp-beme]

As I mentioned in my previous posts, I have seen three different E220 National Caramel back variations--the two that Rhett has scanned for us, which are printed from the top of the card to bottom, and the other one that I mentioned, which is printed bottom to top.

After re-examining examples of the bottom to top printing variation (all variations fellow board member J.Hatch first pointed out to me years ago), I noted that it has the same printing layout as Rhett's second example, the one that the 'B' in the word 'Base' lines up under the second 's' in the word 'consists'.

Why is this of any relevance? I have two back variations of each of 18 cards. 14 of these pairs consist of Rhett's first top to bottom example (the one where the 'B' in the word 'Base' falls under the first 's' in the word 'consists') and the bottom to top variation I have mentioned (which lines up like Rhett's first example). The other four pairs have a combo of Rhett's back variation one and back variation two.

What can be deduced by this? Perhaps that the bottom to top back variation was not a separate printing by itself, because it appears that the same card does not exist as both top to bottom type 2 and bottom to top. Anyone out there feel free to prove me wrong. An educated guess would be that these two were from the same printing, but for some darn reason the backs on some of the cards were printed upside down on the sheets.

The type one back seems to be the most readily available...I have 118 different of the set (minus the Ruth and Cobb--hey, usually I blanch at the big bucks), and I can vouch that at least 99 are available with type one backs. I would venture to guess that all 120 are available (see list below for ones that it would be nice to verify as well) with this back, but perhaps only a portion are available elsewise.

How this helps out the dating of this issue I'm not sure...perhaps it is for more probing minds like Rhett's to extract the meaning of these observations and carry on with the filling in of the gaps of logic (I really stretched to make a few dental references).

Here is the list of players with unconfirmed type 1 backs--feel free to let us know here if you have any:

George Burns (Cleveland)
Ty Cobb
Frank Frisch
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Heinie Groh
Chas Hollocher
Rogers Hornsby
Walter Johnson
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Carl Mays
Emil Muesel
V.J. Picinich
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
George Sisler
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
Milton Stock (batting)
Fred C. Williams



Brian

[ValKehl]

Walter Johnson.

Kindly show a pic of a back that is printed bottom-to-top. I may be dense, but I really don't follow what you mean by this. Thanks in advance!
Val

[nolemmings]

Val, turn your Walter Johnson card over, with his head still pointing up, not down. Now, do you have to read the advertising starting at the bottom of the card toward the top, or from the top of the card toward the bottom?

While I don't collect the E220 issue, here are two examples of Famous and Barr, with the first being top to bottom and the other bottom to top:

[jrhatchjr]

Always nice to be remembered :-)

I do remember some of the correspondence I had with Brain about the E220 backs years ago. I seem to recall I was measuring the back lines in millimeters at the time and also found some backs in my collection to be reversed. Because I am easily confused and I'm pretty tired, for the sake of this discussion the 'B' below the first 's' is type 1, 'B' below the second 's' is type 2? If yes, then here are some verifications to Brian's type 1 list from my own collection:

Gowdy
Rousch
Grimm
Hollacher
Picinich
Burns, CLE
F Snyder crouching
F Snyder standing
Johnson
Frisch
Kilduff
E Meusel

In total, I have 85 of the type 1, 2 of the type 2 back and 21 of the type 2 upside-down backs. I also have a handful I can't identify. Are the 'normal' type 2 backs 10x as difficult as the 'upside-down' type 2 backs? And are those upside-down type 2 backs 4x as difficult as the type 1 backs? Probably not based on my meager sample but the disparity is interesting.

Here are some pics of dupes I have with different backs...

Frank Snyder standing with type 1 and type 2 backs...

e220fsnyderfront.jpg

e220fsnyderback.jpg

Zach Wheat with type 1 and type 2 upside down backs...

e220wheatfront.jpg

e220wheatback.jpg

[jrhatchjr]

Frank Frisch with type 1 and type 2 upside down backs...

[ValKehl]

Todd,
Many thanks for the pics and the explanation. Now, I comprehend.

For what it is worth, my eyes have an easier time distinguishing between the Type 1 and Type 2 backs by looking to see where the "B" in "BALL" is in relation to the "p" in "pictures" above it.
Val

[brianp-beme]

Glad to see a little action on this thread. I know I have slightly tweaked its focus, but I think that maybe the issue date can be solidified somehow by establishing the relevance of the back variations. If anyone can do it, Rhett can.

Thanks Todd for claryifying the top to bottom/bottom to top issue...sometimes it is tough for me to successfully describe something of this nature. And thanks Val and especially Jim for your contributions to the verified type one list, and the little photo primer of each back variation. One question for Jim...is the Kilduff the 'leaping' pose? I will leave it on the unconfirmed list until verified.

I do like Val's suggestion of identifying the backs...my eyes also find it easier to locate the positioning of 'Ball' relative to the line above it. Like mentioned previously, I used to measure the first line in millimeters too and still have them identified on my checklist as either 67mm T/B, 71mm T/B or 71mm B/T...now I don't have to carry along a metric ruler.

Jim's back variation percentages roughly parallel what I have (I would have to break out all the duplicates to find out for sure). A theory on the printing could be that the full set was issued with the type 1 back, and that a second, partial printing was issued of the type two and the upside backs on the same sheet (because I have not seen both of these backs together for a single player). If we can confirm that all the backs were issued with the type one backs, then I think that Rhett's contention that these were issued only one year (or perhaps partially reissued later with no changes to front, just the back) is stronger.

I have updated the unconfirmed list of type 1 variations below...feel free to pitch in. There has to be a few more collectors of this silly little set, or at least people that have a type in their collection to help out the cause.

Revised list of unconfirmed type one back variations:

Ty Cobb
Heinie Groh
Rogers Hornsby
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
George Sisler
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)
Fred C. Williams


thanks, Brian