Who is the greatest BB player you ever SAW?

[Touch'EmAll]

The all-time leader in "lowest opponent batting average": #1 Nolan Ryan with .203, then #2 Koufax with .205

Basically, Nolan Ryan was the most difficult pitcher of all time to get a hit against.

Koufax had the advantage of a raised pitching mound - big help. Nolan Ryan came along after they lowered the pitching mound to make it easier for hitters.

How many no-hitters would Ryan have if he played with a higher mound like Koufax? Maybe 10, 11 or more?

The stupid ass Cy Young voters had a bone to pick with Ryan. Case in point: 1973 Ryan broke Koufax' single season K record with 383, had not one, but 2 no-hitters, was around 20 wins for the lowly Angels. And they gave the Cy Young to Palmer. Makes me sick to my stomach. As a kid I was mortified by the voters decision - as an adult, still am mortified. Could you imagine a pitcher with those season credentials not winning the Cy Young.

Yes, there is sometimes corruption in baseball. Yes, there are media darlings, aka Palmer.

Plain & Simple - Nolan Ryan had the best stuff of any pitcher, ever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Plain & Simple - Nolan Ryan had the best stuff of any pitcher, ever.

FWIW Bill James ranks Ryan 24th among pitchers.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

FWIW Bill James ranks Ryan 24th among pitchers.

I'm thinking that Bill James must have never seen Ryan pitch in person, especially in the '70's.

[dabigyankeeman]

Originally Posted by thekingofclout

I'm thinking that Bill James must have never seen Ryan pitch in person, especially in the '70's.

Yes, I saw Ryan pitch one his 200+ career 10 or more strikeout games in person, the guy was an animal, just awesome.

[Mark]

Ryan threw hard, but so did Gibson and Seaver. It's the latter two who impressed me by shutting down my Pirates on a regular basis.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ryan's WHIP is not even in the top 250 of all time. You can look it up. He had flaws to go along with the wicked stuff.

[Mikehealer]

I can't imagine anyone that saw both Ryan and Seaver pitch actually believing that Ryan was the better pitcher.

[barrysloate]

Tom Seaver was the much better pitcher, and could be the best I ever saw in his prime.

[Jason Carota]

Pedro Martinez, hands down. His performance during the 1999 season was out of this world.

[FrankWakefield]

Reading through all of these posts, I see the names of players I saw, on the field, in person. I did not see DiMaggio play, nor Ted Williams, nor Satchel Paige. I think I saw the rest of them...

My initial answer to this would have been Mr. Musial. But I recognize bias in that, he was a lifelong Cardinal, a really nice guy, a great ambassador for the game. I thought about seeing Koufax and Gibson pitch against one another in St. Louis, I sat in the right field pavilion behind that screen, I can still hear the popping of the ball in the catchers' mitts. Neither wanted to lose to the other, they were bringing it. I don't think anyone's mentioned Lou Brock, nor should they, but he sure was exciting to watch when he was in his prime, stealing bases. Seaver was serious and businesslike. Same for Ryan, and Randy Johnson. Maddux had that same focus. I saw Mantle play, and Spahn, and Mays. And Clemente. As I've thought this through, maybe Albert Pujols... Or must it be Hank Aaron, with a solid career, complete skill set, and that big bat?

Do I look at a player's performance in a game, a season, a career?? I thought about Bonds, Marichal, Brett, Gwynn, Martinez, Boggs, Sutter... I know it isn't Puckett, nor Rose (although he may well have been the most driven, competitive player I ever saw on the field).

I turned to Bill James' list of greatest players. Mr. James has a way of figuring stuff out. Sometimes I don't initially agree with his results, but usually I'm won over with his reasoning. On page 329 of his revised Historical Abstract, he commences to explain his rating of the Greatest Players of All Time. To paraphrase would be an injustice, go read it, or read it anew. When you get to page 358 he commences his listing. I've put the players I've seen in person in bold.

1- Babe Ruth
2- Honus Wagner
3- Willie Mays
4- Oscar Charleston
5- Ty Cobb
6- Mickey Mantle
7- Ted Williams
8- Walter Johnson
9- Josh Gibson
10- Stan Musial

I'll list some more of the ones I saw...

12- Henry Aaron
15- Joe Morgan
16- Barry Bonds
21- Mike Schmidt
24- Frank Robinson
26- Rickey Henderson
30- George Brett
31- Mark McGwire
33- Pete Rose
34- Eddie Mathews
35- Craig Biggio
36- Warren Spahn
38- Tom Seaver

Joe Morgan was a player who could beat you many ways... seems he was always drawing a walk, or getting a big hit, or the biggest hit, I recall seeing him out in shallow right, knocking down a ball that had "base hit" written all over it, but Joe didn't have his glasses on, he wouldn't read "base hit", and he'd throw the batter out. And he was a presence on the base paths.

Henderson annoyed lots of fans and writers. James thinks that with the passage of time, Henderson's skills will be better appreciated.

Biggio... Mr. James explains that well. I thought he had a good shot at the Hall when he was in his 2nd or 3rd season, so I set out to get his autograph. I was successful. And he was, too.

I had a great uncle who was in the car business. He once told me of riding up to Detroit (from Kentucky) by train with another fellow, they were going to accept 2 cars at the factory and drive them back to Kentucky. He was a good businessman, and frugal. He was all about work and Church. But he did like to fish. And he'd sneak in a ball game once in a while. With a twinkle in his eye he told me about seeing the Senators and the Tigers, he saw Walter Johnson pitch, Ty Cobb hit, and saw Cobb steal a base. That would have been in the early 20's; at that time I'd think that Cobb and Johnson were the greatest players active (Wagner was a coach by then).


So.... the greatest player I ever saw must have been Willie Mays. Seems to me Mr. James' methodology did not include gracious autograph signing.