Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip"

[barrysloate]

So if this piece consists of five cards glued onto a cardboard strip, which at minimum seems to be the majority opinion, under what circumstances did SGC authenticate it? Wouldn't it seem like the kind of piece that could not be authenticated, given the circumstances of how it was constructed? Part of the criteria of authentication is knowing what a piece is, and being able to identify it as such. What exactly is this?

[T2069bk]

Kling and Mordecai Brown cards are also missing the color in the collars. Additionally, the Bowerman appears to have Rosy Cheeks so the Red was applied to the card....just not the B for Boston. So 4 of the 5 have some color variance.....

[Al C.risafulli]

This strip is 100 years old, perhaps a bit more. If I remember the lore behind it, it was found folded, in a pocket.

The creasing and overall wear that it exhibits is something that nobody can deny - it appears to have taken a beating over the years.

That being the case, I would guess that if it had been five separate cards pasted together on a strip, at least one of these cards would have, by now, begun peeling away from its backing, or from the other cards. I'm unaware of any glue that could have been used in 1909 to paste these cards together that would have held up for 100 years while being subject to the abuse that this strip has taken over the years.

Coupled with the fact that two different people who have seen and held the actual strip outside of a holder and verified that it is one continuous strip seems to be fairly strong evidence.

This is, of course, not to denigrate the knowledge of some of the experts who have chimed in on this, but it seems that most of those who feel it's not a continuous strip have evaluated the item either from pictures, or from holding it while encased in a slab.

As for why colors are not consistent with the final issue, or why lines appear in places where we're not accustomed to seeing them, as someone who buys various printed materials every single day, there are dozens of reasons why a test, a proof, or a press sheet might look different than the final product. That's a detail that I don't find particularly odd at all, especially using 1909 printing technology.

-Al

[D. Broughman]

Will this help in your discussion

[barrysloate]

If it's not a continuous strip but is in fact six individual pieces- the five cards plus the backing- how do we know when it was glued together? I think it's safe to say the printing is period and it was sent to Wagner right before the mass printing of the cards was to take place. But how do we know the cards weren't sent loose to Wagner and the family later glued them to a backing? That's my point about it being authenticated- has the glue been tested? Do we know how and when the strip was constructed? I just feel if it consists of five separate cards then authenticating it is a bit of a slippery slope.

If on the other hand it's a single contiguous strip then I have no issues with the authentication. But as has been stated earlier in this thread, can't somebody from SGC come on here and solve this mystery for us? Whichever is correct, it certainly shouldn't be a secret and no confidences should be compromised by answering that question.

[barrysloate]

Thanks for that picture. On one hand, those creases between the cards do suggest they might be glued down to something. However, look at the print lines at the top and bottom of the seams between Wagner and Bowerman, and Wagner and Brown. How would those lines be there if five cards were pasted down? Still a mystery.

[sb1]

they are not individual pieces glued to the backing. In fact the spaces/lines in between are irregular and appear to be hand cut cards layed out together. Whether they were trial color runs, progressive proof runs or printers scrap.

How far back can anyone definitively trace this piece??

[oaks1912]

Ted & Jim... It was nice discussing this piece with both of you at the National. While we are all at a disadvantage not being able to examine the piece ‘outside of plastic’, there are numerous anomalies when compared to typical T-206 cards. I’ll agree that based on what I’ve seen, this piece is most likely period and most likely pre-production. Beyond that, I'm not going to speculate. Modern collectors may never be able to determine exactly what this piece is, much like the 19th century hall of fame jerseys that were in Barry Halper’s collection.....

[barrysloate]

Matt- Ted said several other people whom he spoke with at the National agreed that these were separate cards. I don't know who they are or how many he discussed it with, but it appears more than one feel these are separate cards. My opinion from memory is that it was printed on a single strip, but I last saw it in person in 1999.

[Jewish-collector]

I recall reading that Wayne Varner of Shoebox Cards owned it & held it before he sold it to Barry Halper. Perhaps, Wayne could help break the tie from that half the people thinks it's one way & half think it's another.

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by oaks1912

....much like the 19th century hall of fame jerseys that were in Barry Halper’s collection.....

Mark

I think modern collectors may never know what those 19th century HOFer Halper jerseys were, but they do know what they're not

[GoSoxBoSox]

I have also examined it with a 10x loupe. The card was holdered so the edges couldn't be examined but I saw no evidence up peeling between cards other than areas with heavy creasing. Furthermore, I have to agree with the camp that says as a pre-production strip it's hard to hold this strip to the rules of normal production. Anything could have been done to this strip. The lines between cards could be lightly printed lines just as they print the hair on a players head? The lines could also have been put there by hand after the fact using a straight edge? The lines themselves do appear to be printed, IMHO. There is heavy creasing between the Young and the Kling along the seperation and I would think there would be more peeling if that edge was glued. The upper edge between the Brown and the Wagner has a bit of peeling that looks consistent to the heavy crease that drops towards the Brown card so it didn't strike me as odd. My last problem with the theory that these were glued together is that I would think there would be a dog ear or something along the top edge or bottom edge of the proof where the card edges meet? I saw nothing like that. If these are glued I'd like to know how because it must be one hell of a glue job after nearly 100 years in "rough" conditions. I believe many of those years were spent folded-up in Honus' old uniform pants pockets in the attic of his Pittsburgh home. The cold and the heat up there in the attic had to hurt the glue somehow, no?

All of that said I obviously have concluded it's all one strip. Either way, it's obviously a unique pre-production piece that was not subject to the same printing rules as the cards that came later during mass production.

I guess I should also mention that I have been collecting continuously since 1975 now. 30 of those years I've been into pre-war cards. Not that it should matter when stating the observations I mentioned above, but it seems to be important to some the we are qualified to have an opinion.

I would also like to say I respect the opinions of those who feel it's a 6 piece card. It's a somewhat fascinating debate because nothing would surprise me in this hobby. I sure wish we could know the truth for sure .......but that just won't happen.

Tom Papa