Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip"

[Comiskey]

What I don't understand is that SGC would have a problem standing by their opinion. I mean, they examined the card and slabbed it, why wouldn't they want to express their opinion on the card? I understand that sometimes threads can become negative, but if they come on the board and express their professional opinion, I would have greater respect for third party grading.

It's a piece of hobby lore and any details about the strip should be expressed so we can come to a detailed conclusion about the piece.

I guess I am just having a hard time believing that a company created to determine the authenticity and grades of these cardboard pieces, wouldn't come onto this board and tell us their opinion on the piece?

Jeff

[HRBAKER]

I can see both sides but they have graded and authenticated it already by slabbing it. In essence they have already rendered a professional opinion.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I can see both sides but they have graded and authenticated it already by slabbing it. In essence they have already rendered a professional opinion.

Exactly!

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Comiskey

What I don't understand is that SGC would have a problem standing by their opinion. I mean, they examined the card and slabbed it, why wouldn't they want to express their opinion on the card? I understand that sometimes threads can become negative, but if they come on the board and express their professional opinion, I would have greater respect for third party grading.

It's a piece of hobby lore and any details about the strip should be expressed so we can come to a detailed conclusion about the piece.

I guess I am just having a hard time believing that a company created to determine the authenticity and grades of these cardboard pieces, wouldn't come onto this board and tell us their opinion on the piece?

Jeff

I suggested maybe someone from SGC chime in back at post #25 so I'm guessing either they don't want to get involved in the discussion or they assume the fact that they slabbed it speaks for itself. Personally, if prior owners say it's one strip that's good enough for me. Unless I hit the lottery I won't have to worry about ever owning it so I'm not losing much sleep over it one way or the other, but it would be interesting to hear SGC's take on it.

[cfc1909]

SGC gave their opinion-it is in their holder-SGC A-that is their opinion.

Anything else that is said or written should be to the owner of the card, not on a public chat board...

[goudeygold]

If you step back and think about it a minute, how can 5 cards could be glued together so perfectly that it is essentially undetectable under a 10x loop 100 years after being glued, then creased, folded and tossed about.

The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...agnerstrip.jpg

[tedzan]

Regarding this recent comment......
"The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate
cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO."

I don't think you realize that the printers employed by American Lithographic were the best at their trade. 100 years ago, they were the
foremost lithographers in this country. Accurately piecing together 5 images of BB players was a trivial task for these professionals. Have
you ever seen the amazing lithographic pieces of art produced by American Litho. ?
These little pieces of cardboard we call T206's pale by comparison.

However since you brought up this subject, I ask all of you to take a good look at the scan of this strip in post #39. Many of you have
said that the vertical lines between the cards were printed. Check it out again guys....if those lines were printed, then they would have
the identical intensity (and appearance) as the black ink printed proof cross-marks.
Instead these vertical lines are "hairline" thin and no where as intense. In no way are these hairline vertical lines the result of printing.
And, no one here has yet been able to explain these lines. Other than they are indeed the separations between these images.

I think Frank Wakefield's following post best describes the make up of this "5-image" strip.

"....It isn't cards at all. It is separate papers, printed on the papers are the images that would eventually be the fronts of certain
white border tobacco cards, the papers are pieced together as seen. It isn't a card, nor 5 cards, and it isn't even a printer's proof.
It seems a spec sample of what was planned, a demonstration of what could be....."


TED Z

[tedzan]

dstudeba

Regarding your......
" From a scan Ted determines that it is a set of individual cards put together and goes public with this theory. After much
discussion defending his view, he actually sees the piece in question, examines it through a slab, and determines that he is
indeed correct. "

"Ted", only ? ....... have you bothered to read thru this thread ? ?

Most likely not....So, I refer you to Posts #5, 6, 15, 60. Those posts were from individuals, who ALSO question that these 5
images were NOT printed as an intact strip.
Hmmmm, so what seems to be your problem with singling out only Ted ?

Look we all agree on two things regarding this strip....

(1) It is an original pre-production piece printed in early 1909.

(2) It is a tremendous T206 artifact.


Some think it's a continuous strip, and others of us differ. The color differences in of the 5 images with respect to each other
contradicts everything we know about American Litho's 6-color printing process. That, and other more subtle aspects of this
artifact leads us to believe it is not exactly what it is advertised as being.


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- Leon posted that the previous owner of the card, Wayne Varner, said with certainty that it is a continuous strip. He owned it before it was slabbed and held it in his hand. Doesn't the controversy end right there? Can one of the original owners of the card be wrong? Seems like we've passed the point of it being debatable. That cinches it for me. Don't you agree with that?

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by tedzan

dstudeba

Regarding your......
" From a scan Ted determines that it is a set of individual cards put together and goes public with this theory. After much
discussion defending his view, he actually sees the piece in question, examines it through a slab, and determines that he is
indeed correct. "

"Ted", only ? ....... have you bothered to read thru this thread ? ?

Most likely not....So, I refer you to Posts #5, 6, 15, 60. Those posts were from individuals, who ALSO question that these 5
images were NOT printed as an intact strip.
Hmmmm, so what seems to be your problem with singling out only Ted ?

Yes Ted I have read through this entire thread much to my dismay. The reason I "singled" you out was I believe you were the first person to come up with the multiple cards theory in post #15 of this thread on May 19, 2010. I am not singling you out, but giving credit where credit is due. If you were not the person to come up with this theory I apologize.

[benjulmag]

What borders on hiliarity about this, as well as the PSA 8 Wagner, is that both instances can be conclusively resolved, I believe, by taking the card/"strip" out of its holder and re examining it based on available grading standards. In the case of the "strip", if in fact it is a strip, then presumably when out of the plastic one can simply do the "feel" test and then we're done. In the case of the PSA 8, a high magnification analysis of the borders (and for that I'm not even sure it is necessary to remove the card from the slab) will show whether that card's borders has such physical characteristics that, over the years, has caused PSA to designate countless cards with comparable borders as "authentic". Really, this is not that complicated. We're not trying to solve who shot Kennedy here. In the case of the "strip", inasmuch as I don't believe its value willl be materially impacted either way whether it is a strip or individual pre production cards glued together, I am hopeful that to resolve this hobby discussion its owner will allow the out-of-holder anaysis. In the case of the 8 Wagner, based on what its sister card (Conlon Plank) realized in the 2009 REA auction, an "A" designation will be a financial death knell. So in my lifetime, and probably that of my childrens/grandchildrens, that card will never be voluntarily re examined.

[HRBAKER]

Corey,
Maybe we could ask the former owner who has weighed in via e-m to Leon if he performed the "feel" test. I feel certain he most likely did.

Jeff

[Rob D.]

Here is a post attributed to Wayne Varner in a previous thread on this subject:

Ted Z and others, I can shed a little light on this proof strip. Back in 1978 Bill Zimpleman, Mike Wheat, Ken Blazek, and myself, Wayne Varner were on a buying trip in the Pittsburgh area and we purchased this strip from a gentleman who had purchased Wagner's house. We bought a number of items he found in the house. I cannot remember all the details, but after we purchased the strip, we had a drawing, and I won the strip. I sold it in 1980 to Barry Helper, who to my knowledge owned the strip until he passed away. I can tell you from holding the strip many times, it is not cards pasted together. Could that have been done at the factory and then potographed to send to Wagner, possibly, but not likely. However it was done, it was definately done at the factory, and has the proof lines like all the proof cards I have ever seen. I have seen the strip on several occasions since Barry passed away and it is in the same orginial condition as when I owned it from 1978 until 1980. There is no question it is orginial and unaltered no matter what anyone says. Hope this helps a little.

Wayne Varner
SHOEBOX CARDS