Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip"

[FrankWakefield]

Some folks here actually post meaningful, erudite, insightful posts about old cards... exclusively or primarily. Some folks sit at their pc's like buzzards, waiting to swoop down on others, but they seldom if ever actually post anything that is about cards. Maybe about something tangentially associated to cards, but hardly ever about cards, for they know not about them.


Who of us have not bought something from someone who maybe didn't fully, completely understand and appreciate what they had? Many of us.

Who of us have ever seen a slab that was incorrect as to the identity of what was inside. Most of us.

So what a former owner thought isn't a slam-dunk argument-ender. Nor is a slip on a slab.

Wayne Varner is a good guy, he's quite knowledgeable about old ball cards. Ted Z knows a right smart, too. Neither are infallible. SGC certainly isn't infallible. For those of you who have total faith that SGC got it right, I wish you well. Wayne saying it's one way doesn't resolve it in my mind. It was years ago when he owned it, I don't know he was particularly looking for the paste-up aspect of it, sometimes an item's flaws and shortcomings aren't apparent to its owner... Wayne mentions proof lines, I don't see those. The proof marks I've seen on T206 proofs look like this " + ", not this " l ".

I've not seen this piece in person. It would have been a good reason to have gone to the National, but there are buzzards there (a good reason to avoid the National). I'm not certain Ted's right about it, but at this time I think similarly, but I'm not certain. I'm fairly sure it isn't a "proof", notwithstanding SGC's label. The traditional proof cross-marks aren't there.

We can go back and forth forever. Peace.

[martyogelvie]

FYI
Ted has been using 'T-Rex' on his signature for a long long time...

[GoSoxBoSox]

Frank & Ted,

I, at least, thoroughly examined the proof strip and heard the testimony of others that thoroughly examined it before I came to a semi-rigid conclusion. In the end it really makes no difference to me what your opinion is on this particular topic. I was trying to have a factual debate but when those facts cornered some of you into a box you decided I'm a newbie buzzard who know nothing about old cardboard. I have seen that happen hundreds of times on N54. The truth is I have a hard time sharing anything with people that know everything already and spend so much time spreading negativity about the hobby we are supposed to love (I'm not specifically talking about you two).

You can continue to call me anything you choose if that makes you feel better. It means very little to me. Some characters on N54 have always verbally flipped-off anyone new to this forum who's opinion might differ and I suspect that childish execise of urinating around the perimeter will never change. I'd rather associate with positive open-minded pre-war collectors and do so everyday. As always, I will continue to navigate the B/S/T forums daily to pick-up more goodies and, on occasion, I will chime in over here if the mood strikes just like I have done for many years. Like it. Don't like it. Who really cares?

It's just baseball cards guys. I wish you both well.

Tom

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GoSoxBoSox

Frank & Ted,

I, at least, thoroughly examined the proof strip and heard the testimony of others that thoroughly examined it before I came to a semi-rigid conclusion. In the end it really makes no difference to me what your opinion is on this particular topic. I was trying to have a factual debate but when those facts cornered some of you into a box you decided I'm a newbie buzzard who know nothing about old cardboard. I have seen that happen hundreds of times on N54. The truth is I have a hard time sharing anything with people that know everything already and spend so much time spreading negativity about the hobby we are supposed to love (I'm not specifically talking about you two).

You can continue to call me anything you choose if that makes you feel better. It means very little to me. Some characters on N54 have always verbally flipped-off anyone new to this forum who's opinion might differ and I suspect that childish execise of urinating around the perimeter will never change. I'd rather associate with positive open-minded pre-war collectors and do so everyday. As always, I will continue to navigate the B/S/T forums daily to pick-up more goodies and, on occasion, I will chime in over here if the mood strikes just like I have done for many years. Like it. Don't like it. Who really cares?

It's just baseball cards guys. I wish you both well.

Tom

Hey Tom
It was nice finally meeting you at the National. Our dealings have always been top notch and I hope we have a ton more in the future. Unfortunately, I feel your frustration. There is so much sarcasm and antagonistic remarks (sometimes) on the board it makes me puke. You might think that as moderator I can control it. I can't. It's a no win situation. I usually just leave for a short period (hours or a day) and then come back, make a positive post or two, start a factual thread...and forget about the few people who always look at the negative, offer condolences in a sarcastic manner, and just antagonize because they are probably not happy with themselves. I can't figure it out any other way. Ya know, if I was in a hobby where all I did was complain and look at the negative (not saying we shouldn't expose fraud etc....we should) then I would find another hobby. Maybe those few people that are like that will eventually go away. We can only hope.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by GoSoxBoSox

It's just baseball cards guys. I wish you both well.

Considering I just wander over here from the postwar side on occasion, that was pretty much what I was thinking. I don't see the person that bought the strip coming on here worrying about it so I don't get the hostility and hardcore opinions about someone else's card. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, just like with PSA 8 Wagner. It would be nice to have a definitive answer I guess, but as long as the people (or person if it's the same guy) that owns those cards doesn't have an issue with them, what's the big deal?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by GoSoxBoSox

I'd rather associate with positive open-minded pre-war collectors and do so everyday.

There are plenty of us on here. Just admit that it's not a continuous strip and all will be forgiven.

[FrankWakefield]

Jim, I now stand corrected, and was previously mistaken. I do now see the " + " marks. And those marks are how the proof marks appear. I do thank you for posting that image so I can clearly see it.

My recollection is that most of the proofs lack the name caption, maybe someone can post images of 2 or 3 proofs that show the " + " marks and either do or don't have the caption.

Does anyone recall seeing vertical lines like that on any other T206 item?


I'm not 'blahhing' the piece, I admire it. It's great. Wish it was mine. I just don't think that proof is the correct term for it, still. And I still think it's assembled. Could be wrong about that, too.

[Abravefan11]

I too examined the strip at the National. I could see nothing that indicated to me it was created by pasting together multiple images. I believe it to be one continuous strip of cards printed at the same time.

Looking closely at the image you can see several printers marks on the strip. On the left and right of each image there is a "+" mark. On the top of each image there is a "+" mark and on the bottom there is a "l" mark. But most importantly concerning the main focus of this thread, there are "l" marks between each image top and bottom with most falling directly on the line separating the images. The one on the bottom between Bowerman and Young falls just off the line. Several are not visible as creasing has destroyed them. These marks IMO show guidelines used in the printing process for maintaining the proper separation between each image that was being printed at the same time on the same strip.

[tedzan]

Dan (dstudeba)

No need to apologize, I was the 1st to post on this forum my reservations regarding this strip. However, I and several other hobby "dinosaurs" have always
been skeptical of this strip's make up.


Tim C.

Those "guidelines" you referred to are simply printer's cutting marks found on most sheets (or strips).


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1....Wagner's collar is Blue, while the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling ARE NOT Blue ?

Wagners collar is not blue. Here is a side by side comparison of the strip collar and a complete image.



What appears to be blue on the strip collar is shading in the art work. If you look closely at the complete image you will see this shading under the blue. All of the collars on the strip are missing the blue ink.

[tedzan]

So, again I ask....why are not the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling the same as Wagner ?

And, can you please explain the other two anomalies I questioned ?


TED Z

[GoSoxBoSox]

Ted,

Good questions that I have no answer for.

You say these 6 colors were applied in layers as follows:

YELLOW
BLACK
BROWN
BLUE
DARK GREEN
RED


Can you tell me why (1) If that is the color sequence how did Brown and Kling get a RED background when they did not yet have BLUE collars yet?, and (2) How did Cy Young get a DARK GREEN background without yet having a BLUE jersey?

So much for your color sequencing.

Edited to add I think all of these points about color clearly show changes were made between the time this strip was made and production started. We would be short sighted to think this couldn't happen. That would account for all three of your points, Ted, and both of mine.

[parkerj33]

Ted,

I don't understand the printing process, but don't the plates (or something else) determine the "mask" of where the color actually falls on a particular color run? In other words, there is some sort of masking process which causes the red to be printed on the background only portion of kling and brown and a different mask prevents the other 5 colors from also being mixed into that background. Presumably the mask for the bowerman would also have a "hole" so the red bleeds through in the shape of the "B" in the boston uniform. Now, can't it be at least *plausible* that the masks used in preparing this 5 card strip (assuming for a moment its a single strip - not individual cards) were pre-production or in some way not yet setup to print the colors as we know them today? I don't see why thats a technical impossibility. maybe they hadn't yet finalized the masks for each color run at the time they made this strip. heck...they may have just cobbed together 5 plates of players they thought would make a compelling argument to honus - for just this test run. Then in the real press runs (all with proper masks) the plates were actually printed on different sheets with different "neighbors". I am an engineer and we make prototype and "checksample" runs prior to production to uncover anomolies, production inefficiencies, bugs, and provide these as pre-production marketing units to get customers interested, etc, so the concept seems perfectly feasible.

By the way, I am not questioning anyone's knowledge, and I've never seen it in person. Just trying to understand how the knowledge of the printing process makes it implausible that it is a single strip printed together.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

So, again I ask....why are not the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling the same as Wagner ?

The collars of the other three have an underlying color of gray or white and Wagner's is black. The color blue would have been applied over what we see on the strip. The dark shading the left side of Browns color shows through the blue on a complete card as does the shading on Bowerman and Kling.

[tedzan]

Hey guys, I aint conceding yet. Not until, some one (anyone) with color printing expertise can explain the following color anomalies on this 5-card strip.

1st....here is an example of how the colors on this 5-card strip should look like, if it was an intact strip of these 5 images.

2nd....for those who are unfamiliar with American Lithographic's 6-color printing process involved in producing the T206's. These 6 ink colors were layered
over each other in the following sequence and each layer of ink was applied simultaneously to ALL cards on a given sheet (or strip).
YELLOW
BLACK
BROWN
BLUE
DARK GREEN
RED

Now, compare the Wagner strip with the above simulated "strip" and tell us why......

1....Wagner's collar is Blue, while the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling ARE NOT Blue ?

2....Why is CYoung's uniform color missing, while the uniforms of the other 4 subjects are their proper colors ?

3....Brown and Kling have Red backgrounds; however, Bowerman's uniform missing the Red "B" ?

These are valid points that engender serious doubts regarding the claim that the images on this strip were printed simultaneously. And, so far, no one here
has yet to provide a credible explanation for these color printing anomalies.

I still maintain that what we have here are 5 individual T206 front images that were professionally pieced together by an American Litho. employee in the
T206 pre-production phase in the Spring of 1909.


TED Z

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Wayne mentions proof lines, I don't see those. The proof marks I've seen on T206 proofs look like this " + ", not this " l ".

You really don't see the "+" signs?
They're pretty obvious.

[martyogelvie]

why do those "Proof" "+" lines look as though they were added by someone with an inkpen??

[mkdltn]

The + marks were drawn in with a black ink called tusche. If the T206 cards had say Eight colors plus a keystone, all eight of the stones would have the little registration marks ruled in in the exact same position. When each color was printed one over the other they make the the little black registration marks.